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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by Rik on 12 October 2010 - 02:30 |
| Jeff, are you the extra large guy with blond hair or the helper. If the helper, my planned comment was that even the dogs do not like you. If you are the big guy, I want to apoligize in advance for any offensive comment I might make. |
by smith on 12 October 2010 - 02:45 |
| Jeff stop with the "did i scare you?" trust me you scare nobody!! i had over 20 pms saying what a jackass you are! hey jeff this is for you!!!!!!!!!!!!! watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYT89iItQgw |
smith by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 October 2010 - 04:22 |
| You are the showline champion I am sure. I notice that 20 gutless wonders were powerful enough to PM LOL I watched your life story on youtube. What were you hoping for, Pity ? LOL I can do this all day. |
by charlie319 on 12 October 2010 - 13:56 |
| Well, the topic is not if SL's can work like WL's, but showline bred with workingline. IMPO, both have something to offer and some judicious breeding could produce dogs that are not only able to work but to be v rated. Granted, I also think that sables and black dogs should be allowed to compete in the show ring on an equal footing with the tan & reds on the issues of conformation. The objective could be to develop a new bloodline dog in which certain core qualities and temperament could be consistently replicated several generations later. |
charlie319 by charlie319 on 12 October 2010 - 13:57 |
| Well, the topic is not if SL's can work like WL's, but showline bred with workingline. IMPO, both have something to offer and some judicious breeding could produce dogs that are not only able to work but to be v rated. Granted, I also think that sables and black dogs should be allowed to compete in the show ring on an equal footing with the tan & reds on the issues of conformation. The objective could be to develop a new bloodline dog in which certain core qualities and temperament could be consistently replicated several generations later. |
by darylehret on 12 October 2010 - 18:25 |
| Only, there are few enough workingline breeders that can consistently produce well as it is. How are the new show/working crossline breeders supposed to be worthy of taking on an even more complicated challenge, more complex than their record of primarily selecting for what's aesthetically pleasing to the eye? Where do you suppose they're going to eventually start making compromises when they fail to bottle it all in one package? Compromises will be made where the least profit's to be had. Basically, SSDDecade. |
darylehret by Jeff Oehlsen on 13 October 2010 - 04:26 |
| Quote: Jeff, are you the extra large guy with blond hair or the helper. If the helper, my planned comment was that even the dogs do not like you. If you are the big guy, I want to apoligize in advance for any offensive comment I might make. I am the guy with the blonde hair. However, i don't take this seriously. |
by Rik on 13 October 2010 - 06:06 |
| I am the guy with the blonde hair. However, i don't take this seriously. You don't take me serious. Are you serious. |
by JooRyong Kim on 13 October 2010 - 08:40 |
| Why breed with showline when workingline bred soley on work produces prettier dogs as a secondary quality. Showlines are fucking ugly and an eyesore, maybe it's because ugliness follows lack of work genetically speaking. Seriously. |
by charlie319 on 13 October 2010 - 13:52 |
| Darylehret: I agree that it is a more complex task to control a larger number of genetic variables by breeders in both sectors that have grown lazy and complacent in breeding for a few traits while neglecting the whole dog. I don't see the development of these dogs as a two or three generation process. The deconstruction of the generic GSD did not happen overnight, and neither will the remedy. It would be a great achievement to have the same dog win both the Bundes Sieger Prüfung and the Bundes Sieger Zucht Schau. Part of the problem of the breed is the innability (or unwillingness) of breeders to attempt such ambitious endeavors. AS to which side they wil fall off to, it will depend on the breeder. Serious ones will have a part of their "program" that seeks to push the envelope in creating a more perfect animal. Giving more prominence to the Universal Sieger title could be a first step in creating an incentive for such a dog. JooRyongKim: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder just like uglyness lies in the heart of the beholder. A dog must be able to do some type of work, but as far as looks are concerned, balance and the breed standard are the key. BTW, some of our WL experts can list for you WL dogs that are/were, shall we say, less than aesthetically pleasing, but could work like fiends and are in many WL pedigrees. So, looks and ability to work are two separate traits. BTW, I don't think that WL's are ugly, the SV system pushed aside all but tan & blacks back in the late 1960's. IMPO, there are many WL dogs that, but for their color, could compete very well in SL shows. My favorite SL/WL bloodline dog, Frei von der Gugge is frequently found in both show and working lines. Go figure it out. |
by darylehret on 13 October 2010 - 18:07 |
| So what "disciplined" showline breeder is going to "remedy" our terrible plight?. Who will be first to train and trial amongst workinglines, to begin to understand what their dogs lack? Will they perhaps then get that it's not in the least bit worth the effort? If you want an attractive workingline dog, I would instead suggest going to a workingline breeder that consistently produces attractive workingdogs. Kennels Salztalblick or Salztal-Höhe might be a good choice. You can't "water-up" those showlines to make them worth anymore than a mediocre-blah-workingdog, anyway. Is it the saddlebacked black & tan coat what you can't give up? What is it you fear to lose, really?! Just trash those lines, and convert to thetrue german shepherd, the "last of a dying breed", or get the hell out of the way. Twenty pages now, and not one good point in the argument ":for" sealing the rift between working and show. After all, the thing that separates us, if you recall, is where your priorities lie. And the people that helped make showlines such a disaster, want to make their mark on the rest of the breed? Hasn't enough damage been caused? |
by charlie319 on 13 October 2010 - 20:32 |
| It seems that there are more SL dogs than working-lines in the market and both have breeders of all kinds. It is funny that only the WL's folks get offended by this, as the SL crowd is just as much, if not more, to blame for the split . As you may know, the Universal Sieger title was issued to dogs of both WL and SL¿s, so they've already competed. It is not just the question of aesthetics, but of balance. While I agree that there are many WL kennels like ¿Salztalblick or Salztal-Höhe¿ that produce fine dogs, I would prefer the kinds of dogs available before the lines split. Coloring is not an issue, at least with me, and to make the point, the most recent bloodline dog is Alf vom Körnersee (DOB: 04/14/1983), way before the ¿true german shepherd¿ WL breeders so much tout¿ In other words, neither WL¿s or SL¿s has really been able to coin a bloodline dog since the split took full effect and the reason would appear to be that neither produces a dog that is complete enough to garner the distinction. If you want to continue buying dogs that have a few salient traits, that is fine, but some of us would like to see some of the GSD return to a more complete and versatile dog as it was before the split. |
by Preston on 13 October 2010 - 20:32 |
| It is not realistic to put the genie back into the bottle. The best we can hope for is decision making by the top WL competitors/breeders to try and breed a GSD with better structure ie better proportions and conformation, or for those WL owners who have a top placing profung GSD to be willing to spend the extra time and effort showing the dog in the zuchtschaus, and being willing to stud their dog to interested SL folks who have good bitches they want to breed for better temperament. There is always a chance that a WL superstar could emerge that could bridge the gap of WL back closer to the standard for structure and movement. This would be a fortunate break for the breed, maybe a other top producer like Frei Gugge who was a sensation GSD in all manner and was a prepotent sire of deep quality. I know that if I was breeding GSDs, I would use Ellute Mohnweise and his sons in my breeding program. There are others which can if bered correctly produce superb working temperament and good overall conformation. In the meantime, one can only hope that breeders, both WL and SL dedicate themselves to attempting to move as close to the standard as they can without destroying their chances of placing at least moderately high in the sport they are in. As long as there is a bifurcation of the GSD sport into zuchtschau and profung you will necessarily see a bifurcation of the breed in these two somewhat divergent directions, which itself is a bypraoduct of the inctredible levels of competition one ses in these two separate GSD SV dog sports. |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 13 October 2010 - 21:04 |
| Quote: The best we can hope for is decision making by the top WL competitors/breeders to try and breed a GSD with better structure ie better proportions and conformation, I don't see anything wrong with their conformation. Are you saying that they should look more like an incorrect show line dog ? How many have actually worked their showlines in ring or something other than goofy Sch ? I look at their structure, and the few dogs that have that conformation that had some juice broke down. Their heart wouldn't let them quit, but their body structure failed them miserably. The working line structure is the correct structure. How hard is that to understand ? It is the structure that has held up to the stress of the work, which is what the breed is about. All I hear is speculation on the part of the show line stuff. This needs to be this way for that, bla bla bla, but no actual experience. I put some of these showlines on a bungee, and lets see how fast their backs go out. It will be like an experiment. |
by Ibrahim on 13 October 2010 - 21:04 |
| Preston, Your words are a treat for the soul, thank you. Ibrahim |
by Felloffher on 14 October 2010 - 00:36 |
| I agree my working dogs need to have a more roach in their topline in order to work better. This surely would help them go all day and night without slowing down. I'm now looking for a S/L to breed to any suggestions on a stud? My stud requirements are as follows. Weak nerves Narrow skull HD( I will consider borderline however) Back must look like a boomerang Hocks must drag PM me if you have what I'm looking for. Thanks Adam |
Felloffher by Jacko on 14 October 2010 - 02:01 |
wow, there are some very bitter/ jellous people here. I this thread is sad and funny as hell at the same time. |
Jacko by charlie319 on 14 October 2010 - 17:21 |
| Preston's is, as usual, a voice of clear headed logic. Where most of the WL-defenders make it an all or nothing argument in favor of their dog's physical style and forget that the resulting SL/WL cross would be closer in appearance and temperament to WL's than to today's SL dogs. However, one has only to peruse some of the WL's puppy classifieds to see that they are succumbing to the same trap that SL's did. Instead of the floating gait, they are going for big, blocky heads and a few other traits. This is likely to result in another genetic bottleneck, just like it has happened to the SL's where it is a task to find a good prospect for show, sport or breeding that is not a Canto or Quanto bloodline. Ideally, one would opt for a KKL-1 show-line female with excellent drive and temperament (courage and bidability) and breed her with a top WL male of equal or better conformation, temperament and drives. IMPO, color is not a big deal and the raochback is a relatively recent development. The dogs that one sees used as examples were of a much less pronounced and more correct conformation. |
by Felloffher on 14 October 2010 - 17:47 |
| Charlie, Is the confirmation of all W/L's that far away from the standard look of the old dogs you speak of? Can you find an example of a good W/L and post it along with the perfect example of a S/L? I keep looking at the dogs from the 40's, 50's, 60's and find most (not all)resemble modern W/L dogs more than S/L. Again you keep making this same argument about finding a top notch S/L to breed to a W/L for balance. I guarantee you will find several working dogs that meet your ideal confirmation with out the need for a cross. It seems to me that this ideal shepherd you have in mind is a theory and has no real substance behind it. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I would love to see the examples. |
by Ibrahim on 14 October 2010 - 18:03 |
| Please correct me if I am mistaken, The founder of the GSD and his fellow friends put down a standard for the GSD they wished the future GSD will fulfill (reach) one day by selective breeding of the foundation dogs at the time and their offspring in future. If the above is correct then no one can claim that dogs from 60, 70s etc had the right anatomy or better anatomy of today, one can claim that character, temperament, working ability etc was better but not the structure and anatomy. And I am not saying either the anatomy today is better or worse. Some work breeders claim that the dogs they produce at present are as good if not better than those in the 50s ... 60s etc and tell you what I do believe one of of those breeders who say this. Ibrahim |
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