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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 August 2010 - 04:24 |
| Quote: Ask Karl Fuller of Kirschental. The great WHORE Karl Fuller ?? Where are your working dogs Karl ?? When you saw the $$$$$ you followed it like a 16 year old boy follows the girl who says yes. |
by maywood on 15 August 2010 - 17:31 |
| Quote: There's less drag when running with a tucked tail. - Darylehret I hear ya, I thought it was amusing too. :-) Quote: Dogs should be able to outrun humans, but humans have a more efficient heat dissipation system and dogs simply overheat and need to cool down. That is why the AD is not a 12 mile run, but broken up in segments with a break in between each segment. – charlie319 This is absolutely correct. I would also add that the majority of today’s show lines seem to have deeper chests and therefore a larger lung capacity which helps them breath in more air further improving their ability to cool themselves down which of course translates into better endurance in the animal. Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do. Quote: Jeff, Great Descriptions too. You are cracking me up. – Jacko You know, as much as I despised Jeff earlier in this thread, I have to agree with you. He is starting to grow on me a little too. Thanks for keeping this conversation grounded. You are a great mediator. Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community. Quite frankly, I never see this behavior reciprocated from the show line community towards you guys. For example, I have never read or heard anyone in the show line community going on record to shout blasphemous words towards Helmut Raiser. I could be wrong of course, but it seems to me they just ignore him and concentrate on the task at hand. Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap. For people new to the breed, it just causes confusion. I mean, think about it, someone has just purchased a new show line puppy and they are all excited about getting involved in Schutzhund. And since the working line community pretty much runs the majority of the Schutzhund clubs in this country you guys kind of “rain on their parade” with all of this negativity. And then those same new puppy owners are now all depressed and not so excited anymore. Is all of this negativity really that necessary? Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field? I think everyone would love to see this negativity “go the way of the Dodo” as it seems to do nothing but hurt the breed’s popularity and especially the sport of Schutzhund in this country. |
maywood by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 August 2010 - 18:42 |
| QUOTE : Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do. Yet they still outran me on the hottest day. It is all about conditioning. QUOTE: Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community. Show line dogs cannot do what the breed is supposed to be able to do. Not only that, they are greater in numbers, so they lower the bar greatly on what a dog should be capable of. Just look at your above example. Yet every dog but one ran with me no matter what time of day, and had little problem smoking my bags. That is just one example. Look at what passes in their shows as a Sch3. Embarrassing. Of course they can't hate us, they are the ones lowering the bar, and producing goofy looking dogs that have no character. Yet, when I say something like that, they all bust out the ONE or two that do ok, out of literally hundreds of thousands. It is not like I am silly with joy with the working line people. Many of the dogs have way too high thresholds for the work, amongst other things like lack of character. QUOTE: Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap. You are right, Lets kill off all these show line shitters and get these people on board with actually training their dogs, and abolish dog shows. Last thing anyone wants to see is some great queer prancing around the ring. LOL It only hurts those that willingly breed dogs for looks knowing that the dogs they produce will not stand in the door and say this is my family, I will die for them. Too many of these people I see with their shitter pressed against their legs growling at me and they are babbling about "See ! ! ! He is protecting me". OH GOOD GREIF. QUOTE: Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field? It is supposed to be the same damn breed skippy. There should be little difference. They still sell the damn things based on what the working lines can do. BUT THEY LIE ! |
by Gustav on 15 August 2010 - 21:42 |
| I don't condone Jeff's language, and I don't subcribe to his delivery, but in the last post his message is spot on. Its not about dog shows and breeding for what people want, its about breeding to maintain the integrity of when a person goes to a breeder to get a German Shepherd, they can reasonably expect to get the type of dog that represents the legacy of the breed. The breed was created to work, be vigilant, be steady, be courageous, be protective, etc whether it was working with man, family, or livestock. If you are breeding pretty dogs that consistently maintain this type of dog....my hat is off to you; but if you are breeding weak nerved, fearful, clumsy, spongeboned, types of dogs that don't represent these ideals, WHY should true GS breeders ACT like this is Okay to get along??? Because they are profitable to an unknowing public, or to allow everyone to own this breed; even those who only care about cosmetics and will let the working qualities or the qualities that created the legacy(the dog wasn't made to be shown...sorry thats a fact) go to hell in a handbasket.??? No, a resonsible breeder will not coexist with a breeder that is breeding dogs that doesn't represent the legacy of the breed. If show people are breeding dogs that still demonstrate high levels of working purpose....I HAVE no problem with them. But if what they are creating is so skewed in regard to cosmetics that it doesn't fullfil the purpose of the breed....then I can't just get along!!!! Its about the breed not people's ego for trophies, ribbons, and fame.JMO |
by Red Sable on 15 August 2010 - 22:18 |
| Great post Gustav. |
Red Sable by charlie319 on 16 August 2010 - 00:28 |
| Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey.... There you go again... Talking out of your ass just because at times your brain seems to reside within it... You got any numbers to back that up, or is that just some sort of fantasy you would like to see happen?? I've stated before that there are some WL dogs that sould sompete in the show-ring, except for the established idiocy of having kicked sables & black dogs out in the 1970's and '80's. I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary. That being said, every week, there are show-line dogs that tittle in SchH. That you may, or may not work SL dogs is a personal choice of yours. THis is complete crap. Why have a breed club then ?? Why have a judge or a sport ?? While I agree that a breed warden is a good utopian idea, the reality of the situation is that, here in the USA, the buying public is the arbiter and there is a large contingent that is not interested in plunking down a bundle for a dog which may, or may not, live up to the expectations created by a gaudy pedigree and breeder embelishments... Needless to mention that some of these embelisments are only to justify the oft quixotic prices one sees advertised. Both WL breeders as well as SL breeders are guilty of this. Do I advocate for breeding dogs that are not representative of the standard? absolutely not, however, both camps seem to want to use the standard to further thier own economic interests, while I believe that a SL/WL cross does fit in well witin it. BTW, we do have a breed and it is not just WL dogs, but includes SL dogs and everything in between... The "breed club" has shown its flaws in the past as someof its officials have used their pull to benefit a particular interest. After all, such was the situation that resulted in non blac & tans being displaced out of the showring. I have to be honest, I don't see GSD's as "striking", especially the showlines goobling about on their hocks. I find their apple heads to be comical. So, I don't see a rationale, but a marketing scheme. I have yet to hear anyone go on at any length about WHY they are breeding the two together, other than to add to the show lines bullshit drives, and temperament. Contrary to you, I can see the beauty in both SL and WL, except in the more extreme cases that result in the weak hocks and the overly loose joints, as well as dogs that are a bit too utilitarian or have disproportionate features such as "big blocky heads" or display such drives as to make them more of a hindrance than a complement to their owner's life. At least I admit that this is my own taste in dogs, and don't try to palm this off as the breed's gospel. IMPO, the genetic bottleneck being fostered by current (and not so current) breeding practices may be enough reason to carefully try to preserve the better traits of various bloodlines and avoid the obvious problems (genetic problems) that it may bring to the breed. as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation. You just don't because, as a friend of mine used to say: "It is just too damn hard". |
charlie319 by darylehret on 16 August 2010 - 12:07 |
| What does "display such drives as to make them more of a hindrance than a complement to their owner's life" mean? |
darylehret by charlie319 on 16 August 2010 - 12:58 |
| I'm not knocking the dog type, just the situation... Not everyone who wants a GSD for its many extraordinary qualities wants or needs a dog with the set of drives for a serious working or protection competition dog. However, some do buy dogs with extraordinary pedigrees and end up with much more dog than they bargained for or are able to accomodate. I've seen a number of threads from owners whose dogs/puppies have them stumped and it boils down to an ill fit between dog temperament/drive/energy level and its owner's lifestyle. |
by Gustav on 16 August 2010 - 13:18 |
| BUT, don't change the BREEDING of the dog to accomodate these people. Let's hope that if they get a german shepherd again they are able to get one of the "softer" dogs out of a good strong litter. If the softer dog doesn't work, maybe the breed isn't for them though they "like" the looks. Bottom line is the dog should represent its legacy and perspective owners should realize and plan for an active working dog when they get a German Shepherd. JMO |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 16 August 2010 - 14:12 |
| Quote: That being said, every week, there are show-line dogs that tittle in SchH. Do you really think those trials count ? Where are they ? I don't see any of these dogs at trials. Buying a title is not the same as rocking a title. Quote: I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary. Like I said, one dog. You can bust out one dog. I have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean much. Stupid show lines. I never mentioned a breed warden. We are American not German. It wouldn't work. Look at that idiot Graf. She is/was the breed warden. Hilarious. You basically are condoning breeding bad dogs so that everyone can have a GSD. So you basically are saying it is ok to be a whore. Sell to who ever, but I have my head up my ass ?? Trust me, you are the one with your name written upside down carefully on your belt. I have no problem with people breeding dogs at all. However, when you start with dogs that are not even German Shepherds anymore, what do you think is going to happen ? Quote: as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation. No, I cannot. I am 46, and not 13 getting my chain yanked by someone older. I know better. They are all shit. There are maybe one exception to this rule, but if the dog actually had drive we could use, the show people would not breed to them. It is very very hard to have 7 or 8 high drive dogs. However, it is easy to own 7 or 8 door knobs, So, they are all shit. |
by missbeeb on 16 August 2010 - 15:24 |
Hi Jeff... long time no post! I usually read your posts and much of what you say is true! However, different people have different aims. I'm learning SchH for the first time (with a SL dog). With most of the SL people, SchH is a means to an end... not a chosen hobby! If Jimmy (and moi) can put in a reasonable performance, I'd enter a trial. Now, here's what you're missing imo... if all the serious working guys took on SL dogs to work, we'd see a different picture. SL dogs will probably never work (generally) as well as WL dogs, but how much of this is down to the simple fact, that nobody's really trying to work them? Different aims! It doesn't always mean that the dogs are crapola...  Play nice!  |
missbeeb by Steve Schuler on 16 August 2010 - 16:13 |
| @Gustav For the sake of discussion, not argument, what do you think about the difference of drives/energy that might be considered optimal between a GSD that is employed as a Patrol K9 and one that is employed as a Seeing Eye Dog. I do not have personal experience in either endeavor, so I don't presume to know what those differences might be. I do know that the Fidelco organization which uses GSD's exclusively in their program of breeding, raising, and training GSD's as Guide Dogs describe their dogs as "A Breed Within A Breed" as a catch phrase and that their breeding program is based on German Workinglines. I realize that this question is not really pertinent to the Showlines-Workinglines controversy, but I do think it is relevant to how breeders goals might differ depending on the intended use of their dogs. Thanks in advance if you can contribute to my understanding in this matter. SteveO PS If anybody else besides Gustav can contribute to this question please feel free to do so. Please consider it an "Open Question" to the members of this forum. Thanks again in advance to anyone who might contribute some input into this question. |
Steve Schuler by Prager on 16 August 2010 - 16:15 |
| maywood Endurance in police work. I Czechoslovakia during communist era Z Pohranicni straze dogs were tracking and catching people ( I am sorry to say) over long distances on Czech X German border. Seemingly the endurance was a big issue. Thus Karl Hartl developed "Czechoslovakian wolf dog " cross between wolf and GSD. This resulted in super high endurance animal by the way with great hips. They tested it once by running it by the car for 40 km that is about 28 miles and when done and trying to put the dog into the car the dog took of after a rabbit and after short chase coughed it!. Now there is endurance. By the way,..please take a look that this breed (yes it is a breed now). It does not look like anything like a GSD in structure. He is almost perfect square , ... the most efficient shape after sphere and circle which could be put into a square or cube. Nothing like a show dog. Well what is important about this is to know that if you change one trait then you will invariably change other traits too and often not for good!. Promotion of one gene will change more then one trait! This dog was not consistent worker and the program was canceled since the agency realized that the endurance is not above all the most or only important quality and that well bred working GSD can just about always outrun a person. Again you must see the whole picture. Again this example is applicable to anyone who puts undue importance on single trait no matter how important it is. Like Hips, color, or endurance,.... for example. Prager Hans http://www.alpinek9.com CZ wolf dog :->  |
Prager by Jeff Oehlsen on 16 August 2010 - 16:27 |
| Ever notice that the nice threads get fuck all for views ? Quote: Now, here's what you're missing imo... I am not missing shit. You can make a pretty picture with a show dog, but he is still not cut out for this shit. It all goes back to making excuses. Well, they COULD be........ no, they cannot. You are breeding a different dog, and saying that it is a GSD, with all the legendary things that go along with the breed, but you are selling a stuffed toy that moves. Quote: If Jimmy (and moi) can put in a reasonable performance, I'd enter a trial. Here is another problem. "IF". This is not brain surgery. The dog should be able to do this. It is the minimum requirement for breeding. It takes time and effort to train a dog, but just because you put in the effort, does not mean that you should get a title. That is hard for some people to understand. It is about maintaining the standards for the sport, the standards for the breed. There are some dogs, and they are just NOT going to title, they are not weak, but the opposite. They do not deserve the title either, but are the exception to the rule. Show dogs are too weak, too nervy, and people are out there somehow getting a title. I watched a ring 3 exercise a couple of weeks ago, and the person got their 3. The nightmare for me was that the decoy work blew ass, it was a ring one with more exercises. The dog was border line out of control the whole time. The person works very very hard to train her dog. She is a good person. Do you give the title away to this person ? She needed it, as she is going to be a judge in Mondio. That is pretty hard for people. OH MY GOD, WHAT IF SHE TAKES IT PERSONALLY ?? You see what I am saying ? I am a bastard for pointing out that the decoy work was absolute shit, the dog was out of control, and didn't really deserve to pass. If the decoys actually worked the dog, the dog would have failed many many more exercises. But with todays society, and everyone gets a trophy, the dog passed with an excellent score. I think that this person is an asset to Mondio. Do I think she should be a judge ? Hell no, to weak a personality. They will bully her, and get her to pass shit dogs with decent scores. What would you do ? Do you see how this parallels Sch about 30 years ago ??? In my lifetime, I have to see two sports lower the bar so that "people can have success. But what is it worth when you know it is crap ? How proud would you really be ? And EVEN WORSE, what if you really thought that was a performance worthy of the title ?? Shit goes down the drain pretty fast doesn't it ?? What were we talking about again ? Show line shitters, and how you want me to accept that it is ok for them to be around and bask in the glory of dogs so far beyond these curs reach ?? : ) |
by missbeeb on 16 August 2010 - 16:47 |
OK Jeff... my doubts are in me, not Jimmy! I have had a little training with the "real" working guys (not SL people) and they are confident in my dog and probably too polite (not something you'd be hindered by) to tell me to lose weight and get with the programme!
Real WL guys are out there day in day out training their dogs... it's not what the majority of SL want to do... it's a means to an end... the dogs need a qualification and that's it! I would expect us to gain any title legitimately or not at all; a hooky title is as worthless as any hooky win imo. |
by Steve Schuler on 16 August 2010 - 17:02 |
| @Jeff Since you are currently present and seem to be very knowledgable about GSDs, perhaps I should direct my question from above towards you. If you happened to miss it here is my post in it's entirety: For the sake of discussion, not argument, what do you think about the difference of drives/energy that might be considered optimal between a GSD that is employed as a Patrol K9 and one that is employed as a Seeing Eye Dog. I do not have personal experience in either endeavor, so I don't presume to know what those differences might be. I do know that the Fidelco organization which uses GSD's exclusively in their program of breeding, raising, and training GSD's as Guide Dogs describe their dogs as "A Breed Within A Breed" as a catch phrase and that their breeding program is based on German Workinglines. I realize that this question is not really pertinent to the Showlines-Workinglines controversy, but I do think it is relevant to how breeders goals might differ depending on the intended use of their dogs. Thanks in advance if you can contribute to my understanding in this matter. SteveO PS If anybody else besides Gustav can contribute to this question please feel free to do so. Please consider it an "Open Question" to the members of this forum. Thanks again in advance to anyone who might contribute some input into this question. |
by Gemini on 16 August 2010 - 17:25 |
| I agree with missbeeb. I have a showline female( the hated Am. lines). And I am surprised when people say they have showline dogs or GSD that is doesnt have ball drive or drive all together. It is always around 100 degrees here in Texas. And daily I have to take her out and throw her tennis ball for 20-45 min. Since she is just under a 1 yr. old I try not to do any long run or walking. I accepted when I bought her she was high energy. That is what a GSD should have. I dont want a GSD with low energy that is not what the breed is about. While the other pups in the litter were all good energy none like mine. My dog has a brother from same sire and dam two year's early. One of the males was doing Mondio Ring until his owner pulled him out of it. I believe my dogs limitations are with me. Not with her. And I agree that the breed should not be "bred down" owners have to accept they are purchasing for the most part high energy dogs. |
by darylehret on 16 August 2010 - 18:00 |
| It's important to remember that it's not all about drive for a ball. That's not what defines drive to work. Many of the old border patrol lines have little ball drive at all, which makes them less appealing in sport, especially in light of contemporary training methods, but has little to do with their real working ability. I have a male that loves biting, always had -right out of the box. First time I ever introduced him to a helper was at 23 months old. Now suddenly, at 24&half months, he's retrieving for the first time ever, but using the same level of "drive" he's had in everything else he does. I had him going over an 8 ft. A-frame and other obedience excercises with no toy or food at all, and now he suddenly likes toys. |
by charlie319 on 16 August 2010 - 18:01 |
| Quote: "Do you really think those trials count ? Where are they ? I don't see any of these dogs at trials. Buying a title is not the same as rocking a title." You asked for it, and I gave it to you. Or are you telling me that the many SL dogs with SchH and other titles are getting them from a non-sanctioned entity? If you want to make the tests more like they were in the past you can apply to work with the USA, but I doubt you'll convince anyone with your people skills. BTW, I do agree that SchH has dropped the bar, but it is almost impossible to find a KNPV program anywhere. Like I said, one dog. You can bust out one dog. I have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean much. Stupid show lines. There are more. Look up the list of Universal Sieger winners and representatives to those competitions. BTW, you show your spots with that kind of comment. They are what they are. If you don't like them, that is just you. Quote: I never mentioned a breed warden. We are American not German. It wouldn't work. Look at that idiot Graf. She is/was the breed warden. Hilarious. You basically are condoning breeding bad dogs so that everyone can have a GSD. So you basically are saying it is ok to be a whore. Sell to who ever, but I have my head up my ass ?? Trust me, you are the one with your name written upside down carefully on your belt. I have no problem with people breeding dogs at all. However, when you start with dogs that are not even German Shepherds anymore, what do you think is going to happen ? No; You mentioned judges, clubs and the breed and a whole lot of other nonsense. Ideally, every club should have a breed warden. That an individual uses the position for anything other than the purpose it was created for is something that should be addressed by the club. I don't advocate or condone breeding bad dogs, although coming from you, the term "bad" may be specious to your opinion of what is "good". I recognize the fact that not all dogs being bred fit neatly into either SL of WL expectations and that it happens because people buy these dogs because they either don't want either type, or because they won't plunk down some of the asking prices seen in the classified section. As to the "whore" comment, it is a fact that happens daily with many breeders of WL's and SL's. Quote: No, I cannot. I am 46, and not 13 getting my chain yanked by someone older. I know better. They are all shit. There are maybe one exception to this rule, but if the dog actually had drive we could use, the show people would not breed to them. It is very very hard to have 7 or 8 high drive dogs. However, it is easy to own 7 or 8 door knobs, So, they are all shit. You are 46???? Never would have guessed that. I'll agree with you that it is hard to own 7 or 8 high drive dogs... It may even be hard to find time to practice them all daily and still have a life... However, if you've read the rest of my posts, I'm not a SL person; nor a WL's person although I do like a lot of WL dogs. The current SL's are the product of 3 to 4 decades of breeding for a few salient traits. IMPO, that was a bad bargain as far too many are not able to do strenuous work and some seem as if they may not even be sound. The WL's are not quite as far down that road, but at the rate things are going, in a couple of decades, they may catch up with the SL's in diverging from what the GSD was in the 1960's and '70's, when all dogs competed in both show and field. Gustav: My point is that breeders have already "changed the Breeding" to |
by Prager on 16 August 2010 - 18:05 |
| GSD should be bred such a way that if taken on any path in the training then any such individual should do well. Breeding for any specific narrow purpose is not in the interest of the breed and it is not necessary . I'd also say that there are differences between litters and within the litters and then such different pups should go to different type of trainings or situations. But that should not be the PURPOSE of such breeding. Thus" breed with in the breed" is only good as long as they do not reintroduce their dogs as registered GSD to the public genetic pool. That would equal diminishing of the quality of the breed. Prager Hans http://www.alpinek9.com |
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