German Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by Gustav on 12 August 2010 - 15:04
|I think it would be wonderful for the breed if the number of German Shepherds and owners shrunk significantly.|
by darylehret on 12 August 2010 - 16:12
charlie, the mix dog at my old schutzhund club was actually more than $2500 when sold as a pup.
by july9000 on 12 August 2010 - 17:03
|What is fun on this board is that you can quit for a certain time and come back and it is still the same old thing...W/L bashing S/L and so on...looks like kindergarden!!|
Daryl...What is real work to you?? and what is suitable for family living but not companion?? See..I don't get that! Generally dogs that are strong in REAL work..are not good sports dogs..let's not mix banana's and apples here...We all know that Schutzhund is NOT real work!
When breeding W/L and S/L or when breeding period..you will gain and loose some of the traits of both parents. people with W/L with no intentions of doing show have absolutly no interest in breeding S/L (they usually like the 1960's dogs and there GSD ressemble more and more like malinois!). And people doing show with dogs that have great anatomy and stucture looks at those Malinois type and say ARRRGHH! and they won't breed with those either because they don't want to loose what they have. And my opinion on it...TWO WORLDS WITH TWO DIFFERENTS VIEWS THAT WILL NEVER BE RECONCILIATED!
Too bad so sad..but that's the way it is...
by darylehret on 12 August 2010 - 18:07
|How many repeated insults am I supposed to endure, and not be expected to respond? I "graciously" left several pages ago, and the mud was continually slung at me! Are you blind?!|
Ah, and precisely why I differentiated between the two. So what are you arguing? Again, are you blind!?
Not suitable for family means exactly that. These 3 dogs are not social, highly aggressive, and only appropriate for handlers of special circumstance, with experience and under constant supervision. Not at all my preference, so don't go twisting that around either!
by Prager on 12 August 2010 - 18:31
|Sometimes it is OK to breed show and work. There must be reason for it though. And it is important that such Show dog is also excellent working dog and it is known that he produces himself. This is usually done in order to outcross from stronly linebred work line, and in order to introduce quality line from different gene pool. This had been done often in earlier days and it is harder to to today. This is not a work for beginner with great ideas but for seasoned and knowledgeable (of dogs genetics on the pedigrees used) breeder who knows what he is doing and has certain purpose in mind supported by educated guess. That from such breedings are taken the best working pups with quality introduced there by this show dog. Sometimes you can linebreed on result of such breeding 2-3 or 3 -4 and then outcross on strong working dog. |
This had been done on Villo Arminius.
It worked out pretty good even so I personally am not thrilled with Uran - his father's hips record.But there is no perfect dog. Then you need to culling, culling, culling,.... Breeding may be sometimes tough proposition.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 August 2010 - 18:44
| I think that is the big problem, people think, well it has been done, and I need the money, so I will cross this shitter with my other barely average dog. That was a nice post. What do you think about Canto being in my dogs pedigree 14 times in the early 70's ? What influences do you think it might have ?|
The funny thing about all breeds is that they have a standard for looks, but not a minimum standard for work. It used to be Sch, but that doesn't work anymore.
Each person has an acceptable minimum. Look at the video that graf posted. There are people on here that think that that is acceptable work, or even very nice work from that dog.
Maybe the breed needs an acceptable standard for the ability to work.
by Jacko on 12 August 2010 - 18:59
|I think it is time to start calling out the names of the breeders who produce shitters. I would love to see this. I mean, i know where my dogs have came from, and they have been called shitters too. Just because I do not have video of them. That is a very intellegent remark Jeff.|
So call some of the folks out. I am in the mood to laugh. It would not shock me to see the kennels that produced my dog in there.
Ready, set, go!!!
I would say a list of quality breeders would be better and much shorter. So who are some good kennels that produce quality dogs?
by Silbersee on 12 August 2010 - 19:22
|Jeff, not 14 times but 42 times on half the pedigree of your dog.|
Again, I think it matters significantly but that does not mean that these are bad traits. The only thing proved is that these dogs all share the same genetics.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 August 2010 - 19:38
| They shared the same genetics 40 years ago. I am curious to see what Prager has to say about that. I think it means nothing at this point, but maybe how he is shaped. I don't really have any idea. |
Did you look up Daniel's site ??? I have e-mailed him about getting a puppy, and recieved no response. That was over a year ago, and I went to Laurent Liberal instead.
I think the best way is to go to France, or have him here as a judge. Very nice person, and he is, not to be rude, but getting old enough that he may not really want to deal with puppy people anymore. LOTS of knowledge.
I know if I go to France, I will sit outside his driveway, and hope that he comes and talks to me about breeding. I wonder what he would think about a dog 42 times, but 40 years ago.
by Silbersee on 12 August 2010 - 19:52
I think that is the homepage you are looking for: www.bergerallemandhurlevent.com
My French is a bit rusty, admittedly. Next week, when I see my coworker again who is fluent in French, I will check this site out some more.
He (or the family) has been breeding GSDs since 1945. They have been around I guess. And I bet that he was personally well acquainted with Walter Martin who had tight connections to breeders in Italy and France.
This French breeder did or does have showline dogs as well. This is one I found on his homepage: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/282594.html . And look here, ha ha! They have used Uran vom Wildsteiger Land as well in their lines: www.bergerallemandhurlevent.com/fichiers/fiche_chien.php .
Looking at his males, he only charges 250 Euros in stud fees. That is a lot lot less than we have to pay in Germany. Too bad that the SV does not recognize these working titles.
Jeff and darylehret, regardless of what you say but these French dogs were often outcrossed, and they sometimes (not often but they did) went to German showlines as well. Just like the Czech breeders did, see Hans' example above.
by darylehret on 12 August 2010 - 20:04
|As I mentioned to Silbersee way back early in this topic, Canto's 42 times compared to how many times Horand? Across the spectrum, Horand will have even accidentally contributed far more than Canto, if you're just supposing degree of influence by "averages". But the reality is, one single important characteristic can be completely vanquished from the genepool in only two generations time. That's where selection plays the most important part of the issue here. For decades, showline people have selected in favor of completely different traits than Canto could or should have provided, while the priorities of the French were appearantly of a different sort|
by Silbersee on 12 August 2010 - 20:22
|I agree with you darylehret. But you also have to agree that you can breed that single trait back in in only two generations' time! Touche!|
Of course, they can all be traced to Horand. I also mentioned that there are data in Germany about the different mother clans which were selected to be bred to Horand and his male descendants. People like Leonhard Schweikert have done extensive research on that and have attributed certain characteristics to the individual mother clans. Very interesting data but most here have never heard of it because the access to the database costs money. You have to subscribe to it! Sadly, some clans are now extinct and others are on the door to extinction. I have to renew my subscription again but I remember the principle behind it is just like native indian tribes follow their geneology.
by Steve Schuler on 12 August 2010 - 20:49
Thanks for your input into this thread. To be honest, I have been wondering what your general thoughts on this topic were. While I didn't think that this sort of an out-cross would be a path that you would be interested in pursuing in your own breeding program, I was curious what you thought of it in a general sense. Thanks for informing me!
Yeah, I figured my "Cease and Desist Order" would have about as much effect as scolding a Pitbull engaged in combat, but still...
Better luck next time. I appreciate your candor in disclosing what could, or should have been, a nice pairing with disappointing results. This level of honesty is to be commended.
Peace to All,
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 August 2010 - 21:40
| Quote: Jeff and darylehret, regardless of what you say but these French dogs were often outcrossed, and they sometimes (not often but they did) went to German showlines as well. Just like the Czech breeders did, see Hans' example above.|
Again, it is not something to be done here in the states, where it is either a marketing tool, or a cheap stud or bitch.
This Uran dog. Was he just a show dog, or was there some dog in his pedigree that they liked ??
by Silbersee on 12 August 2010 - 21:59
I found Uran in a few more of his females while looking at his dogs.
Uran vom Wildsteiger Land, two times VA-1/World Sieger and several times VA, was not some dog, he was a legacy - still is! www.wildsteiger-land.de/uran/uran.htm . Unfortunately, all in German but this website tells a funny story how a very nervoes East German came to the breeder's house in secret and asked to see Uran. Later, it was found out that it was Klaus Gothe, an official from East Germany when the wall was still up (and nowadays a judge and breed surveyor of the SV). Of course, even the East Germans had admired Uran through rumors and word-to-mouth!
There is virtually no showline pedigree without Uran. He produced better females than males but his male descendant line goes through VA-1 Eiko vom Kirschental to VA-Yago vom Wildsteiger Land to VA-1 Ulk von Arlett to VA-1 Rikkor von Bad-Boll. A son of Rikkor that comes to mind is VA-Kevin vom Murrtal, residing with Tracy Bullinger in Canada. Again this line, a representative out of the Quanto vd Wienerau-line, is more known for producing excelent females.
I am serious, if you ever come to the Washington DC area with your dog, I would love to meet him and you. Why don't you post some standing photos of him?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 August 2010 - 22:38
|I don't know how to post photos. I have one of he and I, and one of him doing his silly "couche" pose.|
by Gemini on 12 August 2010 - 22:49
I have a dog that is breed from American showlines. I am a fan of dog shows in general since I was a small child just for the love i have for dogs. I dont like the extreme angulation in most American showlines and never have since they starting getting really extreme. I grew in America so being a fan of the German Shepherd as a kid it was the Am. GSD that saw growing up in the 80's. I like those dogs that were square. Most people especially in the 80's in Ameria didnt do schutzhund most am. GSD at that time were companions and family guardians. Not all breeders in America breed for extreme angles as not all American with GSD's show there dogs. There are breeder that breeds to keep "correct angles and structures". Some call there dogs old fashion GSD's. I purchased a GSD from a small hobby breeder you can say. And he uses is male on his ranch but nothing major but he has to be able to work and herd cattle on a small scale and does some tracking when hunting. He is square not angled and he got him from a guy that used his GSD as a ranch dog also but full time. The guy I got my dog from used a female from Am. showlines and origianally that was somewhat of a draw-back for me but I really like this male dog. The Am. show dogs in my dogs pedigree are beautiful dogs very angled. Some do herding trials but I am not sure of there true working ability. I am learning but am no idiot. My uncle has a farm with some cattle that from time to time he will move. When I am helping him and my cousins I would like to use my GSD. She has high energy very high ball drive. I am getting prepared to start doing some things in herding with a group here in Texas were I am. I am honest with myself about my dog. Just because I love her and paid for her doesnt mean she should be bred. if I were ever to consider doing something as serious as breeding her she would have to show she has the traits that are desired to pass on. I dont think titles are the only way to show this but I would judge my dog by one. But with her sire he doesnt have titles but is a working dog in my narrow opionion. I dont think the average person should own him personally as he can be a handful. On the above topic I think it can be done and should be done as most american GSD's are being bred with extreme gait. but 1st american breeders have to want to breed for function then should start to breed away from the extreme gait. Just wanted to drop my two cents as i love the breed as a fan of the 80's style GSD in america.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 12 August 2010 - 23:20
| I would love to see some paragraphs there. I am getting old and it is too hard to read. Please.|
I think the closest that I get to your area is Rick Rutt's place. I like going up there, he has one of the nicest fields in the country, maybe THE nicest. I have not been to all of them, so I cannot say for sure. It is the nicest one I have been to.
He is in Pa, about two hours south east from Pitt, and 3 or so from Dulles.
by darylehret on 13 August 2010 - 00:17
Silbersee, that's simply not true, unless you breed it to a dog from other lines that has "it". That's the whole idea, right? Showlines don't have what it is you want from the working lines. Meaning of course, that you'll have to outcross to get it back. If you want to gain this back into your showlines, then it must be selected for, and at a higher priority than appearance characteristics to build saturation in the population. You'll be required to build several new founders, and keep them as far apart as possible until an outcross is necessary. That means also, complete cooperation from breeders of the same mindset to not deviate from the long term plan, which is the largest hurdle of all, in my estimate.
by Jacko on 13 August 2010 - 00:33
I think that is why Tracy has produced great females over the years. She is improving with Males like Utah, but I have always loved her female dogs. My reccomendation to anyone.
She also had Vedor v Wildsteigerland and Pele v Oxsals who were very nice dogs.