German Shepherd Dog > Color Trend When Breeding (87 replies)
Color Trend When Breeding
by nonacona60 on 07 July 2010 - 22:00
|Is it just me or does it seems like working line breeders are producing more sable only pedigrees. I am not saying they are purposely breeding color to color. Actually color is only appealing to the eye. Color does not make a dog a better worker or show dog. However, just as with the showlines being difficult to find a sable show dog, how likely is it to happen that the day will come where it will be just as difficult to find a good work dog other than a sable? I was just wondering that with the sable to sable breeding trend, the gene pool for the working line GSD will becomne limited as to color, just as it seems to be with the showline... JUST MY OPINION, and was wondering what other opinions might be on this....|
by gagsd4 on 07 July 2010 - 22:56
|Since sable is dominant, if you ignore color when breeding, you will naturally get more sables.|
by darylehret on 08 July 2010 - 06:23
|You might find a few decent blanket back or melanistic black & tans pretty easily, but there aren't a whole lot of saddleback black & tans even available. The only one that comes to my mind at the moment is Eick von der berger Hochburg (now in Korea?)|
by YogieBear on 08 July 2010 - 10:34
|I am not a breeder nor an expert so don't slam me, please. But my melanistic blanket blk/red came out of two sables. From what I have read and understood from those on this board more qualified in genetics, you really have to look back on the pedigree of each dog to really figure out what you will get out of a breeding.|
PS... Nona like that avatar - if I am not mistaken the family resemblance is remarkable.
by nonacona60 on 08 July 2010 - 18:34
|YogiBear, I agree the family resemblance is present. Their sister in Brandon may be available soon.... Just giving you a heads up on that.....|
Now back to the OP.. I know you can get blk/tan out of two sables. What my OP was saying is that when looking at a pedigree, (colorwise) that has only sables for a couple of generations, how likely is it that any other color other than sable will be the results. Maybe solid blk, but the trend seems to be, only sable. If sable to sable only breeding continues, than the color gene pool will be narrowed to sable only. Just as that has happened to the showline with the blk/red color...Its almost always certain that if you see a blk/red, its a Showline GSD, because there are virtually no other color showline GSDs. Thats what I think will happen with the workingline GSDs being virtually only sables...Not trying to make a debate out of this, just trying to get opinions as to if others are seeing that trend also..
by GSDPACK on 08 July 2010 - 20:21
|I like to breed dogs based on their complimentary "everything" if the puppies come out purple I guess I screwed something up!|
by nonacona60 on 08 July 2010 - 21:44
|GSDPACK, I was not saying that breeders were doing breedings for color or specific reasons...However, as a breeder, when I breed, (which is maybe once a year), I do alot of research to produce a total package....not a particular color. I thought I made it clear in my OP that the color of a dog was only appealing to the eye, and did not reflect the work or show ability of the dog....|
Getting back to the OP, Again I ask, "has anyone noticed the trend I mentioned in the OP?"
by darylehret on 08 July 2010 - 22:59
|Yes, there's a trend! But, it's not from purposefully selecting on color. When there are so few saddlebacks that can work, and the color is recessive to sable, what do you expect? The only way you'd start to see more black & tans would be if the sable producer's carried a black recessive (or bicolor) that the black & tan could express itself dominantly in the phenotype.|
The only other way would be from multiple generations of sable dogs that are recessive black & tan carriers, that eventually are inbred on. Does it seem kind of ironic, that inbreeding would help to add genetic diversity? Won't happen, if those b&t dogs don't have the working qualities that the breeders are selecting for.
I had a b&t working dog at one point, but retired it from my program, selecting against the color, only because I didn't want to appear to be associated with showline dogs. My bad.
If you look hard enough there's a few to be found. I think Liberatore shepherds has a producing female of that coat type from Slovak bloodlines.
by Abby Normal on 08 July 2010 - 23:07
|There are some excellent blacks in the working lines, and it may be my imagination, but they seem to be on the increase - great, because I love the working lines and the blacks, to me, are stunning.|
by darylehret on 08 July 2010 - 23:43
|If blacks become more popular, then all the greater the chance for black&tan saddlebacks to become more prevalent than they are now. I'm of the opinion that currently you'll see more black&tan working dogs originating from Slovakia, rather than Germany. The reason is, in the Slovak republic, workingdogs are selected more often for real work and not strictly for sport. Therfore, the strains that carry the black&tan gene are more likely to have survived from previous generations that have proven themselves in work (i.e., Egidius/Eqidius lines), rather than the coat color being selected for (as in Germany) from generations that have proven they can't work.|
by sueincc on 09 July 2010 - 02:02
|I guess it's a trend, if you call the last 100 years of working dogs a trend. The only thing about color that matters to (good) working line breeders is nothing, all that matters is that the dogs are within the standard and have dark pigment.|
by Steve Schuler on 09 July 2010 - 03:43
|I think that when Daryl made this statement:|
"I had a b&t working dog at one point, but retired it from my program, selecting against the color, only because I didn't want to appear to be associated with showline dogs. My bad."
I think he may be speaking for a certain type of breeder in the non-showline segment who do base some of their breeding criteria on color. How many I would have no idea. In selecting a black and tan dog out of a breeding program solely on the basis of it's color so as not "to appear to be associated with showline dogs" gives some evidence that "color blindess" is not a deficit found only in showline aficionados.
In another thread, I think centered around some Czech bloodlines, Hans of Alpine K9 made the observation that a male dog that he thought had much to contribute to the breed, and who is black and tan, would likely not be used very much because he wasn't "trendy". I presume he was referring to this dogs coloration not being inline with the "trendiness" of sables in non-showline dogs.
I am not a breeder and personally I don't care if breeders factor in color while making breeding decisions. It is a wide world though and there are still quite a few black and tans around who are not of showline descent. Maybe the folks who are breeding those dogs just aren't in sync with the fashions of the day?
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 05:22
|Not to sound too defensive, but that's not entirely accurate and I'm not totally blind. I would breed in a heartbeat to certain black&tan producers, like Eick von der berger Hochburg or Tyson von der Schiffslache, and probably more if I could think of any that were good enough.|
I've also selected against carriers of the longcoat gene, so what does that mean? Producing long coats is clearly against the standard, but at the same time, really has little bearing on working ability. Just an inconsequential preference, IMO, that probably should never have been a breed disqualification in the first place. I'm not against 'em, I just don't particularly want 'em for myself.
If you can afford to be more selective to your personal tastes and yet maintain a higher standard, you can consider all the "trivial extras" your heart desires. I'm not talking about barely meeting standard, but of considering more of the "whole dog", rather than the "whole dog, with the exception of color." It's not like I would exclude a black&tan from my breeding in favor of a dog that produced more poorly from a working perspective.
by SitasMom on 09 July 2010 - 05:34
|Eick von der berger Hochburg has a son and daughter that are black and red sadlebacks.|
the rest of the litter were sables......
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 05:48
|I inquired about getting one or two of those pups from Eurosport, but Taunya won't sell to me, resenting that my wife and I replaced every dog we ever attained from her. My lifetime commitment to a dog, depends on the dog, and not the breeder's wishfulness. How many times has their buddy Mike kept a dog it's entire lifetime, hmmm?|
by SitasMom on 09 July 2010 - 06:53
here is another, but is it a black and tan or what?
by eichenluft on 09 July 2010 - 11:52
|I have two black/red working-line females in my program, and have had others in the past. I look at pigment (dark pigment), not color, along with the more important traits - bloodlines, temperament, drive - for dogs I want to breed from and to. I've used Eick, and other black/tan working-line stud dogs. I find that more people want "traditional" colored puppies - but these are normally pet homes. serious working homes normally don't make their first choice over color, though usually people do have their preferences.|
Laika v Reimsloherwald Schh3
Lea v Cap Arkona Schh2
by sueincc on 09 July 2010 - 12:53
|and you have to factor in that sable gene is dominate.|
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 18:18
|"here is another, but is it a black and tan or what?"|
Yes, that's a black & tan, just more "melanistic" than the first two you presented.
It was fairly easy to earadicate the bridle color pattern from the breed, which was more dominant than sable. It would not be as easy to regulate the dispersal of a less dominant trait (saddlebacked black & tans) to make it widespread in the workingline side of the breed, and if it were done intentionally, it would/should be a lower priority amongst the other characteristics considered.
by nonacona60 on 10 July 2010 - 18:46
|I am sure there are some nice blk/tans (all degrees colorwise) out there.. But isn't it ironic that it seems the majority of them are all sables? Just a observation I made... Have noticed this trend for a while now....I don't have a problem with it at all. I love sables.....JMO|
Also noticed that solids blacks are coming back also...we all know that is happening because of solid blacks produced from sable breedings....
owner edited: 7/9/10 1:50pmcst