German Shepherd Dog > Contact with the UK KC (147 replies)
Contact with the UK KC
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:52
|I am about to post a seris of contacts. This is from a man that has a wealth of past experience with GSD`s and the breeding of and showing of, and is now watching how things are unfolding and wondering why the Kennel Club are not acting upon health issues... therefore he decided to email them and ask ! Simple enough ? I`d say so - and he is so staggered by the replies he felt you would all like to read them, but doesnt use the pdb so has sent them to me.|
If this gentleman is in agreement to being named, I will do so, but at present he hasnt given permission for that, but he has given me permission to put these on the database...... Oh hum, the progressive, UK KC at their best it seems. Mr Bill Lambert, who has answered the majority of this mans emails is a breeder himself, and rated very highly in my estimation .
How Sad. Mo.
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:53
|First contact to the KC....|
Recently i emailed you asking WHY you have allowed a GSD with hip score
of 50 to gain the title of Champion?? Surely this is NOT promoting what
is best in the breed when a CH CANT even get a Breed Survey class 1.
With everything thats going on between KC and GSD clubs you shouldnt
have given the title, the KC are negligent in giving the title. PLEASE
respond to this email
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:55
|And the reply|
On 2 July 2010 08:19, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Further to your Email below which has been passed to me for response.
Whilst I can understand that it may seem attractive to refuse to award
top awards to dogs that have not achieved certain health test results
there are much wider issues that have to be taken into account.
The Kennel Club view is that the show ring is the place to deal with
conformational issues that can be assessed and considered at the time of
judging whilst other issues that cannot be seen by the judge should be
dealt with at the time of breeding.
I do not know which dog that you are referring to, but the dogs health
results will be available for all to see on the Kennel Club website
providing the opportunity for breeders to make an informed choice when
breeding is considered.
As I am sure you are aware It is an unfortunate fact that the mating of
a dog and bitch with low hip scores cannot guarantee that the resulting
litter will be free of HD. There is however, ample evidence which
suggests that consistent use of dogs with low scores in a breeding
programme should lower the incidence of the condition in the population.
To facilitate this, a breed mean score (the average of all the dogs of
that breed that have been scored under the scheme) is calculated for
each breed and the advice issued by BVA to breeders is to use only stock
which score below the breed average.
You may also be aware of the work that is being funded by the Kennel
Club at the animal health trust with estimated breeding values and the
mate select programme. It is hoped that this will provide breeders with
an important tool for selecting breeding animals and provide more
information regarding the likely hip scores in puppies.
The sender of this email has sent you the following information:
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:55
|so the man asked.....|
I think you have missed the point of my email, the KC have the right to withhold the title if they so wish.With this dog it doesn`t promote the best of the breed which is surely what the KC are about.A dog with such a high score and no breed survey shouldn`t get the CH title.The show ring is not the place due to the "judges" as we know due to the posts on the internet.The dog i`m refering to is Korzwin Randy a GSD but it doesn`t matter which dog it is.If the KC are supposed to promote the BEST of each breed with the title then the dogs should at LEAST have breed survey to get the CH title
Yours not very hopefully
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:57
|and the reply came back.......|
On 5 July 2010 16:15, Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk> wrote:
Having looked at this dogs record I can see that the hip score is arrived at as 3 on one side and 47 on the other.
Hip scores with such an imbalance could suggest that an injury has occurred which would indicate that the high score is
attributed to environmental issues rather than those of a hereditary nature. This is a prime example of why Hip Dysplasia
is a complex issue and all the facts need to be investigated. It would surely seem unfair to penalise an otherwise outstanding dog
on the basis that it once suffered an injury which it is now completely recovered from.
The Kennel Club is current working with a number of GSD breed clubs and should we receive breed wide agreement on a hip score “limit”
We would considering adding this to the reccomendations for Accredited Breeders, however we would want to see widespread adoption
Of the scheme by breed club committees before agreeing tom this.
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 14:58
|So this man still replied back and said....|
Date: 5 July 2010 18:54
Subject: Re: Message from http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk
To: Bill Lambert <Bill.Lambert@thekennelclub.org.uk>
It MIGHT suggest an injury but i think not as we would have heard about it.You are working with "a number" of GSD clubs that signed up to your threats regarding CC`s.The other clubs didn`t sign, the Breed Council along with others use a limit for hips when doing the Breed Survey that you dont seem to like.It takes into account the hip score upto a limit of 20 and 12 on 1 hip if memory serves me right it also takes into account how the dog behaves around other dogs and people in a show environment where there is so much going on and the gun test.How many other breeds dogs have to go through this type of scrutiny to get awarded a Breed Survey?? A dog could still fail the survey if it doesn`t behave itself during the walk around or fail the gun test irrespective of its hip score.My comment is aimed at the fact this dog WONT EVER get a Breed Survey and this should be a pre-requisite of gaining the title of CH surely?
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:00
|so the man took another tack and contacted the person that Bill was suggesting with this....|
I have been emailing Bill Lambert about the award of CH status to a dog
with a hip score of 50 & he said to email you about it.My question is
HOW does a dog with a hip score of 50 and will NEVER get a Breed Survey
be a CHAMPION?? surely YOU could have witheld the title due to health
issues,this dog is not promoting the BEST of the GSD breed.I look
forward to your reply
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by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:01
|and lo and behold back came this ......|
I have enquired about this as I have a limited amount of knowledge
regarding a dog's hip score. It has been suggested that although this is
a high score and would suggest some health issue with the dog's hips it
may not be picked up by the judge on the day of the show if the dog
appeared to move well in the ring. Judges generally don't have
veterinary knowledge and therefore may not have been aware of such a
problem if the dog had been visible mobile.
Breed Shows Team
Canine Activities Department
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 15:27
|And what they have all missed out to observe at the Kennel Club, is that if it is the lovely Champion dog that I now think it is - his owner has NEVER used him and has said that they will NEVER use him.|
How simple would it have been for the KC to answer in that manner i.e. that this particular dog had never been used anyways....- instead, they have gone down the line of showing their distinct lack of concern in general for this thing happening and the owner not being so caring and knowleagable. Mo.
by Skippy on 07 July 2010 - 17:02
by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 17:35
|another little Gem from Bill - he has to be convinced that Breed Surveys are a good thing - OMG !!!!|
Your first proposition is quite wrong and you should address this to the shows department. The KC could not withhold a title providing it was awarded within the rules. The Judges have all signed to say that in their opinion the dog is worthy of the title.
I am yet to be convinced of the value of breed surveys but I am hoping to be invited to observe surveys being carried out at sometime in the near future.
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
by Videx on 07 July 2010 - 18:13
The Kennel Club - SIMPLY A REGISTRATION ORGANISATION
OUR BREEDS FUTURE CAN ONLY BE HAMPERED BY THE KENNEL CLUB
Bill Lambert - simply protecting his job with the Kennel Club
by trac123 on 07 July 2010 - 19:34
|Breed surveys are not 100% - far from it. I have seen one GSD male back off several judges at shows (one gave him 4, yes 4 chances) but he passed his breed survey class 1 - he was surveyed with one of his kennel mates so presumably he was distracted long enough to 'pass'.|
As for hip scoring and the K C, they help run the scheme and the scores are there for all to see, yes, I agree that a poor result should exclude them from the champion title but that would have to apply to all breeds (otherwise GSD owners would moan if it didn't!) difficult!
by Abby Normal on 07 July 2010 - 20:23
|I think that there is some truth to the fact that breed surveys are not 100%, at least while they are not applied rigorously, as seems to happen sometimes. I see little point in castigating the KC for an SV style requirement, they are, as we know chalk and cheese. |
However, I do not understand why the KC cannot implement the most simple method of ensuring this doesn't happen - production of HD AND ED scores in paper form provided to the steward prior to entry to the ring, together with a microchip/tattoo confirmation at the same time. Entries would not be allowed to compete without fulfilling these minimum requirements. It would require that any dog entered must be identified by tattoo or microchip - a minimal burden on the exhibitor. It would require so little additional effort, and it is fully checkable, should there be any accusation of 'ringing'.
Again though, as previous poster said, this would have to apply to all breeds, but I cann't see a problem with that.
by Dex on 07 July 2010 - 21:53
|I agree Abby Normal, your idea does sound like a good way forward in at least controlling the problem. In this particular instance I agree with the gentleman that has been writing in about his concern on how a dog with such a high hip score can win a championship. To win something at that level I do believe it requires health to be taken into account. The trouble is, I guess, if a judge cannot see it then they cannot mark against it, but, like you say, if there is a contributing piece of paper with the minimum checks you state, then people will know that the champion is at least a wonderful specimen, in looks, movement and health. Indeed, to reach championship level, I agree that you would need to apply the checks across all breeds - a positive from what I can tell, for a lot of breeds. Would it be feasible to have basic, different, health checks depending on the breed? as not all breeds are predisposed to hip/elbow dysplasia (and it would place undue costs on breeders having to hip score a breed purely for show when that breed does not traditionally suffer from high hip scores), that way breeds with overriding health issues are measured in that particular aspect? All starts to get a bit complex I guess, but with the amount of slating GSDs are getting it can only help to have something in place like you mention Abby Normal.|
by missbeeb on 07 July 2010 - 21:58
These checks / restrictions are now implemented re our Regional Events... we're no longer waiting for the KC to move ahead.
by Videx on 07 July 2010 - 22:08
|exactly what in pedigree dogs is100%????????????????|
KC crap is tolerated by far too many.
Then those that tolerate the KC crap, then question the Breed Survey - brain dead or what?
by Trotters123 on 08 July 2010 - 00:02
|I do dispair. I weep for the GSD and other breeds who need the KC registration system for 'other things' but I cannot believe that they are so concerned about bringing in money compared to helping Breed Societies protect the breed they are guardians of. It almost seems they deliberatly go out of their way to hamper.|
I do remember the 'old days' of the KC where, yes, there was some concern shown but now it is just little boys who have come out of business school pulling the strings with no idea about dogs. I do however think there are some within the KC who still have the welfare of dogs at heart but are bullied, coerced or threatened into doing or saying what they do.
I was shocked to see Bill Lamberts replies concidering he is at the forefront of the ABS and they SHOUT about health tested animals. A bit of a back slide there!!!
I am really quite upset by it all and feel that the GSD I used to know is almost becoming a target of the KC or any other organisations lies and mis truths for the public.
A very disheartened FRANK
by Videx on 08 July 2010 - 05:01
The Kennel Club turn a "blind eye" to all of these very serious issues at CRUFTS
CRUFTS the KC dog show
Lest we forget.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USZxR41GQR4 (with sound)
The Kennel Club is a disgrace when it comes to meaningful policies for pedigree dog
"HEALTH & WELFARE"
They "SPIN" out excuses that are so uncaring.
ALL Judges MUST totally disregard anything NOT visible in the Show Ring
While the Kennel Club
hip scores and other serious health screening test results
from their KC Show ENTRY CONDITIONS
by mikadene on 08 July 2010 - 12:46
My view for what it is worth. I aggree the KC's reply s somewhat weak in it's reply. Yes it is very hard to take a reward from a dog unless there is overwhelming evedence to suggest the dog is not worthy. The judge has to have this imformation to hand befor he makes the decition who he/she is going to put up. At present rules must be changed to enable the judge to know what dog is in front of him . This at present supposedly is not allowed but most judges know dogs on the circuit. They can't even see the schedule of what dogs are present. So the KC should have the right to strip the KC from a dog but and this is the baddy, There has to be a complaint from an exhibitor that was shown in the same ring and at the time of the show ,to the Secretary of the show with the cash attached. Then the KC can give the reward to the Res CC winner. At the moment there is nothing in the red book that states a bad hip score is a disqualifying fault. There needs to be a KC rule made for such an event. So without a rule the dog has every right to accept the title. As I have said judges should not know who is coming before him in the ring and I fear that if the judge has to check all the hip scores and go over them and check for the id chip then shows will last twice as long as they do now. I am going to be in trouble as all my dogs id are just id'd as penny and rover, and diesel there pet names. This is going to cause more work by re-registering them with their Pedigree name. Id scanners will have to be bought for every breed and all the stewards or judges will have to be trained to use the scanner (More Money). It is a logistical nighmare but it is duable in my opinion. I would like to keep the judge away from knowing the animals names, or any scores that might sway his decision one way or another. So my friend the KC 's hands are tied at the moment and they should have explained clearly why they couldn't strip the award at present. HD scores are not a disqualifying fault. as long as the dog moves ok then the dog is open to compeat. If I owned that dog and the KC had stripped me of the title then the KC would be before the courts and be sued for Thousands for defimation and personal mental injury . Just talking about this dog and nameing it is evedence for the courts because what we are doing is trying to prevent a dog ever winning again, when there is no rule it has broken.
Even though I may aggree with what has been put on this forum we have to be carefull what we put down in writing, some people have been sued and lost and payed quite allot of money.
May I suggest someone suggest's to the KC rule changes be made at their next general meeting or lobby a KC member that may think your way. Best of luck
P.S It doesn't help slagging off the KC and members in any way