German Shepherd Dog > Sch3 (23 replies)
by reid1707 on 27 January 2010 - 04:16
|I have just purchased a Sch3 GSD in the States for $28,000.00. When I saw him on video he showed great bite work, when I visited the kennel he was fabulous at obedience. I have had him a week and have some concerns: He does not respond instantly to the simplest of commands, the sit and down position and recall is not so hot either. I have two female GSD and he shows a little muscle toward the youngest but I have it under control. However, I have a cat (who thinks she is a dog and has no fear of dogs) and this guy is not just showing a little interest, he is full on - once the chase was on there was no command on this green earth going to stop him - normal I know. He is "people" food crazy (so obviously has been taught to eat our food) and will take it right out of your hand if you are not watching him and your plate if you are at his level.He is a very loveable guy but my other concern is he is very loveable to anyone that comes into contact with him. I emailed the seller and his suggestion to all was an e-collar and sending me a video on how to break bad manners in a GSD. My response to this is, do you honestly pay $28,000 US for a Sch3 GSD to then purchase an e-collar. Surely a dog of this caliber and level of training should be acutely aware of what is being asked of him not matter what he is doing and should respond to you the first time. As a newbie to the household should he not be looking for direciton from me as his pack leader rather than going to anyone that moves?|
I would appreciate input on the above concerns and how best to deal with them. My Father was a dog handler with the Royal Airforce and I have had GSD's around me all my life and I also have to say he never used such things as e-collars to train his dogs. I know that some people think they are a good thing and I respect that, but I have to say it is not for me.
I thank you in advance for any advice you may have.
by Slamdunc on 27 January 2010 - 04:41
A week is a very short time to bond with a dog. His personality will change more in the next 4 or 5 weeks and you will see his true personality. You need to start working with him yourself. Just because he has been trained to a SchH 3 by someone else doesn't mean he will automatically respect or listen to you. why should a dog of that caliber listen to you? He needs to learn that you are the boss and gain respect for your leadership, then he will listen to you.
Perhaps you should have spent $8,000 on the dog and $20,000 on lessons on training the dog.
by reid1707 on 27 January 2010 - 09:35
|Thank you Jim for your input, I appreciate it. |
Your first paragraph was helpful, however, your last paragraph was neither helpful or called for - it made you sound quite pompous and rude actually. These messageboards are for ALL people of ALL levels of expertise - for the more informed to respond to the less informed and sarcasm is neither asked for or required -
by malshep on 27 January 2010 - 11:20
|Hi Reid, I agree with Jim, one week to have a dog get used to a new home is very stressful, he is seeing how far you will let him go. Just set down the ground rules and he will follow them. Why are you wanting to use E when he does not know the rules yet. Shape the behavior first , please do not think I am being rude because I am a nice person but I am sure he knows to down and stay at family dinner time. Also he is going to be happy with everyone until he knows who his pack is, he is suppose to be friendly to invited strangers, I have complete confidence he will be different with the bad guy he is a shepherd. He is a Schutzhund dog with a clear mind. I would have the person who you bought the dog from come to the house and help you understand you new family member.|
by Penny on 27 January 2010 - 12:01
Put yourself in the dogs frame of mind. Emigrate to another country, possibly another language, definately different home space and food, and see how you would adjust and work for your new boss within a week, efficiently and without issues that needed ironing out,
i think Jim was being respectful, rather than pompous - put another way, if you had trained the dog yourself, he would be working excellently for you. One thing concerns me regarding your fist post is that you are concerned that he is very friendly to anyone.
Why would that concern you? Sch,h, work is a sport, a control method, and why on earth would you want him to not be friendly to everyone? A good confident dog, that likes people can suss out the people that he doesnt need to like, and has the ability to perform to Sch.h.3...................... no bad guy will get past him if threatened un necessarily.
Stop worrying, enjoy him, and come back on here in 4 weeks and hopefully tell us what a great dog you have, but dont e-collar him. Go back to thinking how you would feel, new job, new country, new home and harsh treatment from folk around you, while you are still adjusting,
by Lief on 27 January 2010 - 12:29
|Just giving commands will not cause the dog to see you as the handler, You must assume the role of the handler, it takes a lot of work to train one to that level and you do not share that history with the dog.Unless the dog has been ''collar coditioned'' I would be very leary of getting an ecollar, if it had I would get one ASAP! as far as the cat goes I would keep it as far away from him as possible,they will kill a kitty quick|
by reid1707 on 27 January 2010 - 17:52
|Thank you everyone for your input, I will now and work with my boy. As for the e-collar - I never had any intentions of using it, this was the seller's recommendation.|
I will come back to you in a month or so and let you know how we are getting along.
Your help is much appreciated.
by Keith Grossman on 27 January 2010 - 18:00
|"A week is a very short time to bond with a dog."|
Yep. You're fortunate that he hasn't bitten you...yet.
by OGBS on 27 January 2010 - 18:09
You should read Jim's second paragraph again. Sarcastic, or not, it is excellent advice!
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 27 January 2010 - 18:14
|28 grand, huh?|
Do you have a pedigree of this dog by any chance?
by yoshy on 27 January 2010 - 18:24
I have just purchased a Sch3 GSD in the States for $28,000.00. When I saw him on video he showed great bite work, when I visited the kennel he was fabulous at obedience.
Do you have the videos to post? pedigree? etc...... what is your training level? exp?
I have had him a week and have some concerns:
He does not respond instantly to the simplest of commands, the sit and down position and recall is not so hot either.
Without proper conditioning to a new handler, and being worked by his new handler he isnt going to respect you as his leader. Nor value you enough to comply with your request.
I have two female GSD and he shows a little muscle toward the youngest but I have it under control.
how do you have this behavior under control?
However, I have a cat (who thinks she is a dog and has no fear of dogs) and this guy is not just showing a little interest, he is full on - once the chase was on there was no command on this green earth going to stop him - normal I know.
To achieve his SCHH3 he has been worked in prey drive most if not all of life most likely without conditioning to home pets such as cats. Its obtainable to have them reach a level of coexistance if worked through properly. Prey equals, small animals, anything moving quickly etc.... So he needs to learn turn on turn off obviosly being turn off to the family cat.
He is "people" food crazy (so obviously has been taught to eat our food) and will take it right out of your hand if you are not watching him and your plate if you are at his level.
Not necessarily. People food is intising to any animal. It smells good haha. So he may not be accustomed to the acclomations needed to function in the home. Such as the boundaries like the cat as well. So this is another problem that can be somed with proper guidance and training.
He is a very loveable guy but my other concern is he is very loveable to anyone that comes into contact with him.
You want your dog to be social and descriminate good from bad. Most likely his territorial instinct was not developed and he hasnt met true foes as schh is a game to most dogs. Some take it serious by there training and genetic disposition. However to most it is a game. Schh does not equate to bite person on command in the real world or a true personal protection dog. The traing for a ppd is much different than simply schh.
I emailed the seller and his suggestion to all was an e-collar and sending me a video on how to break bad manners in a GSD.
I to use various tools one of which is an ecollar. However please dont use one unless you consult someoen whom knows how to use it properly. I would also consult a person whom is familiar with behavior modification and protection dogs. This way you can achieve both sides you need from this dog.
My response to this is, do you honestly pay $28,000 US for a Sch3 GSD to then purchase an e-collar.
Training is never complete. It must be kept up or the dogs gets what we call rusty or dirty. So you will have to spend money and time to continue his training to retrieve/ maintain the level of obedience/protection you want.
Surely a dog of this caliber and level of training should be acutely aware of what is being asked of him not matter what he is doing and should respond to you the first time.
See statement above. You have to do the training yourself to maintain the dog. Police handlers when buying pretrained dogs normally spend 1-12 weeks
by yoshy on 27 January 2010 - 18:40
|In a handler course to get to know the dog, bond, learn how to maintain training, learn how to read the dog, and learn how he was trained. So its not a "here you go" package now "figure it out". The provide the knowledge needed to go with the dog! |
As a newbie to the household should he not be looking for direciton from me as his pack leader rather than going to anyone that moves?
This is simply incorrect. Until you assert yourself as his leader he is top dog. So thats why you are getting the bird flipped at you when you tell him to do something and exspect compliance. So you need to consult someone who can teach you how to assert yourself with this dog.
I would appreciate input on the above concerns and how best to deal with them. My Father was a dog handler with the Royal Airforce and I have had GSD's around me all my life and I also have to say he never used such things as e-collars to train his dogs.
Frankly why dont you consult your father? If you have so much great experience then why are you needing help on medial training tips? Why are you against ecollar if you have never used or seen one properly used before?
Im not trying to beat you up with those statements either. Just its a pet pieve of mine when clients come to me for advice yet they know everything with their experience. So its just best to take a step back and approach with some humility my friend as we all started somewhere. AND it definitely wasnt the top.
I know that some people think they are a good thing and I respect that, but I have to say it is not for me.
I can respect different stroke for different folks. But ecollars are just another tool in the tools box in the dog trainers garage.
I dont know you or your dog but i think you got ripped off bud. And if you dont have the level of training required to own this dog why buy it? Im not beating you up as many peopel have false conceptions about these dogs and the peopel that sell them are just as guilty because they only see $ signs. but if you want to keep this dog and for you both to have a peaceful coexistance while maintaining the duties you want him to do you seriously need to find a good trainer to train you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you need references for trainers there are plenty of people here whom can help and or advise on a specific person close to you.
by Keith Grossman on 27 January 2010 - 18:43
|"To achieve his SCHH3 he has been worked in prey drive most if not all of life most likely without conditioning to home pets such as cats. Its obtainable to have them reach a level of coexistance if worked through properly. Prey equals, small animals, anything moving quickly etc.... So he needs to learn turn on turn off obviosly being turn off to the family cat."|
This is a good point. My last two dogs had never been around cats and viewed them the same way they viewed squirrels and rabbits. You need to be careful with this dog around your cat because it is entirely possible that if he catches it, he will do what mine did and kill it.
by yoshy on 27 January 2010 - 18:59
I most of us have had an experience like that at some point.
def dont feel alone in that boat.
by Scoutk9GSDs on 27 January 2010 - 20:01
|For 28k I would want a car to come with the dog. Sch3 has nothing to do with whether or not the dog is a good pet or PPD.|
by Slamdunc on 27 January 2010 - 21:08
Sorry if I offended you with my comment. Yes, it was a little sarcastic but also serious. I have seen many people spend $20,000 and up for personal protection dogs and adult GSD's. Most of these dogs are nice dogs that have some training in schutzhund or personal protection training. I can assure you I can show you some excellent dogs that are sold for police K9's or military working dogs for $7,000 to $10,000. These are dogs that are considered "green" or have only basic training. It doesn't take much to train these dogs for SchH, Police K9 work or personal protection. I haven't seen many of these $20, 000 or $30,000 dogs that are better than the ones for 7 or 8K. There is marketing involved and the training does cost money which obviously drives up the price.
Even a trained guide dog or service dog with months of training will forget it's training pretty quickly if not worked on a regular basis. If the purpose of this dog is for personal protection or SchH you will need to get with a trainer and a skilled decoy pretty quickly to maintain it's training. If you are expecting this dog to protect you; you need to bond withe the dog and accept the leadership or alpha role. The prior training is always a plus, but you need to continue the training and learn the capabilities of the dog and yourself. You need to train in handling the dog and how to utilize the dog properly.
There are some on this forum that will tell you the dog has to "love" it's handler in order to protect it's handler and that is more important than training the dog to protect you. I disagree. I can assure a dog that is trained will do a better job protecting you than a pet dog that loves you without any training. Ideally, you want both. But the training is more important in the real world. I see Military working dogs that deploy and change handlers on every deployment or even more often than that. Any handler can take a dog and work it. Don't think these dogs won't do what they are trained for because they have a new handler, they will engage and protect their handler because they want to engage and fight. That is what a true PPD needs; the will and desire to fight.
You will need to work this dog to see how to handle him and how he reacts. Good luck with your dog.
by Scoutk9GSDs on 27 January 2010 - 22:35
|I can guarantee you that if I ever sold a dog for 28k then I would deliver the dog personally and spend a week or two helping to integrate the dog into it's new home and teaching the owners how to handle the dog as much as possible. In addition I would include at least a couple tune-ups later on down the road. |
You never said much about what you were wanting the dog for. If it happened to be mainly personal protection then I think you got sort of ......screwed. If you bought the dog wanting to compete in Sch then thats a little different. You would obviously need a club or trainer anyway for mainly sport. If you bought the dog for a pet then you may have gotten screwed or it is possible the dog needs some time and you just need a little more knowledge about how to handle the dog. The fact that you paid that much for a dog and are already seeking advice on an internet forum is a bit ummm interesting.
by Davren on 27 January 2010 - 22:48
I have imported several Sch 3 trained dogs; most recently I imported a male about a year ago. In my experience, the more training the dog has had prior to purchase, the more I need a "Trainer" to work with me and the dog. It is helpful to have an objective, professional person to assist with the transition. It also helped tremendously to have someone work as a decoy with me, so my dog knew my voice, my accent, my approach to him. It also helped to encourage him to be protective at appropriate times. It did not happen overnight; actually, it took several months and to be 100% honest, it was probably this past fall when it all seemed to click for him and me. I plan on having my trainer come back this spring to step it all up a notch for us and so I learn more.
by Ibrahim on 27 January 2010 - 22:59
|Yoshy, my goodness, you are great.|
by Jen_j41 on 28 January 2010 - 02:38
So what is this dogs pedigree?? I am just curious.....?