German Shepherd Dog > Structure Critique (33 replies)
by Nadeem6 on 28 April 2012 - 00:25
|First of all i know these are not the best photos for critiquing structure, but they are the best i have been able to take. |
Just curious to see what he has and doesn't have physically. He just turned 2 years old FYI.
by Dawulf on 28 April 2012 - 00:38
|Nadeem, you know I love Bravo... I think he looks perfect! Look at all that fluff!!|
by sonora on 28 April 2012 - 01:20
He's a very eye catching dog ,and the photos are excellent for critiqueing a dog.
because the dog is standing naturally and not forced into a position.
You have done well.
He looks medium size,medium strong,bi-coloured,long coated dog
with slighty stretched proportions.
He has a good head & expression,slighty short neck,
Level withers,a firm,level back,a slighty short and slighty steep croup.
With a good length of tail.
Very good front and hind angulations.
Good fore chest, the depth of chest should not get any deeper.
The sturnum should be slighty longer.
He has a good underline with a good tuck up.
Stands east/ west in front,and I'd prefer slighty longer forelegs.
To me he's a dog whose hindquarters is much better than his forequarters.
Hope this helps.
by Nadeem6 on 28 April 2012 - 01:27
|Thanks Dawulf, yes overall he is a really great looking dog to me too.|
Thanks so much Sonora. I really like getting such detailed critiques. I don't have the expertise many on here have to evaluate a dog so i appreciate the time you took to give me some info and the education too.
by Jenni78 on 28 April 2012 - 02:38
|Hmmm. He's certainly not medium-sized. LOL|
I think it is VERY hard to tell in pictures because of his coat. It makes gauging his height hard, too. I think in person he looks much different, or at least he did when I saw him last, and I have heard he looks quite different lately. Dallas has seen pics of him all along and then when he saw him, he was shocked. He still swears he is bigger than Caleb.
Do you have a collar on him in all of them? I think they make their necks look weird, or at least they did on Caleb.
I don't see enough evidence of east/west to say for sure.
Why not show him and see what a judge has to say? I'd be curious.
by Nadeem6 on 28 April 2012 - 10:16
|Yeah Jen he isn't medium sized but for sure in the photos he looks the perfect medium sized GSD |
He is about 90lbs. and kinda tall, never measured him so not sure of height. It's the camera angle making him look smaller with me standing cause it's so hard to get those stack shots without him moving by the time i am ready and in position. So i just start snapping pics and then try to move in closer.
Yes he has a collar on in all the pics.
I have been contemplating doing everything with him, (IPO,koerklass and AD), just for my own edification. But we will see when time allows and if i still feel like doing the show thing or not in the future.
After Sonora's critique i looked at some of the dogs in Bravo's pedigree and used the critique and photos to compare the V dogs he has behind him. And it is so much easier to see what good structure should be like and i could see some of the "faults" on my dog now. I am still far from even being a novice at this structure stuff, but before i had no clue, so once again thanks Sonora it was a nice learning thing for me .
by Ibrahim on 28 April 2012 - 10:42
Allow me first to say that I'm an amateur while Sonora is a professional judge and as a matter of fact I'm his student, therefore I don't claim I know any better, but maybe for the first time I see some parts of a dog differently, possible reason is we're critiquing based on a photo, add to that the dog is a bi-color which deceives the eye in regards to various minute details and I had to draw those imaginary lines you see above in order to help me determine various angles and proportions of the dog.
The stack is perfect for the mid parts as well as the fore parts but not for the hind parts, better is when the near hock (to the viewer) is pulled a bit backwards to show actual stifle angle. I shall start with the hind assuming the hock was placed a bit backwards, his stifle angle is a bit big and that is natural for a wl GSD but still it is bigger than what the standard calls for, strong hocks of correct length, tight medium sized feet of correct rounded toes of correct length, good proportions of hind bones. Nice bushy straight tail of correct (beautiful) length. A steep croup but of sufficient length, strong straight back of correct length. Slightly short and level withers. A strong head of excellent parallel planes and proportions.
Coming to the front I see one of the best shoulders on a wl, long front upper arm, angle is very slightly steep (note that only VAs have better shoulder angles), a good lay of shoulder which still could be better (it is not advisable to keep the collar while taking pics for critique, it deforms the neck shape and makes it look shorter and that reflects negatively on how the blade lay appears to the eye of viewer).
Very good fore chest, but If the depth of the chest develops more you will end up with a slightly short legged male.
Strong well angled pasterns on top of correct feet and toes. A strong dry male of good type, large size and correct height to length proportions, very well balanced and looks ready to go get the bad guy. Lucky you are, enjoy him.
by Nadeem6 on 28 April 2012 - 11:08
|Awesome work Ibrahim!! I love the lines posted on him. My friend you are far beyond me in critiquing dogs and i thank you for the additional comments. Yes i have seen a few of Sonora's posts and he has a very good eye and i appreciated his comments.|
The pics were taken naturally outside when we were exercising or just hanging out, so it was all natural stances on his part and me rushing to get photos before he moved.
I will study yours and Sonora's comments more and see if i can be more accomplished at evaluating like you both are.
by Jenni78 on 28 April 2012 - 12:01
|I agree with Ibrahim when looking at the lines. Those are helpful. It is very hard to critique a black dog from a pic, and even harder when they are coated, I think. At least it is for me, but I'm not an expert on the details of conformation, either. I think I am at a disadvantage to judge off photo only because I know how his mother can appear in a photo and that is not her true appearance when she is standing in front of you. I also know she aced her breed survey and show rating and the judges raved when giving her the V. And you can make ANY dog appear to have short legs if you're not shooting from their level, and the long hair doesn't help. These dogs also are very wide across the back/top/hips and I think that can be somewhat deceiving when it comes to them looking shorter than they are. I haven't seen Bravo in months, but I have heard he is very tall, some say he is bigger than Caleb, which tells me by default, he must not have short legs, LOL. However, I think I recall a either the slightly steep croup or something about Capri's shoulder being mentioned in her report. I would not be surprised at all if he inherited that from her, seeing as he appears to be her fuzzier clone. I should try to scan it and post it and get it translated again. |
As I said, I have a hard time just looking at the pic because I keep putting what I know or think I know onto the pic and comparing and not just taking it at face value. I think you definitely should do everything with him- why not? You two seem to enjoy working together and he certainly seems to enjoy doing whatever is asked of him. LSC dogs have a cult following, at least, if not an out-and-out fan club, and in my (extremely biased) opinion, he's one of the nicest I've seen.
Best of all, he's well-cared for.
by Ibrahim on 28 April 2012 - 13:04
|For me I consider each post a learning experience and hence is this additional comment from me, I like to think I know how Sonora presents a critique, he compares subject dog to an image of the perfect GSD and states relative/comparative descriptions of the various elements, he is also very specific with the usage of words, good means good, correct means correct, slightly means exactly slightly and it is a positive description comparatively as there is no perfect GSD yet. The two major differences between what he & I see is|
1. The fore arm
Sonora: needs slightly more length
Ibrahim: long forearm (I think we both agree about how good the shoulder angle is)
2. The size
And hence is the difference we see in proportions he said slightly stretched and I said correct, and length of croup which is relative to total back length, I said sufficient and he said slightly short.
I did not comment on whether his front is a clean one or not as the ground floor is not level and hence a dog tends to stand a bit east/west to gain better stability.
The pictures are not perfect and as said when a picture is taken from a higher altitude from dog's back-top it makes him look shorter, but I took that into consideration in evaluating the size and chest depth. Picture number 4 was not taken from a higher level (I think). Ideal chest depth to total height is 45:55% and it should not cross the 50%, I imagine his chest depth at the moment is very clost to the 50% and hence my comment if it develops further his legs will become short (relatively).
Critiquing from a picture is done as a sincere response to an OP request, but correct reliable critique comes from a professional judge on situ.
My regards to the owner and breeder of this beautiful specimen.
by festnagler on 28 April 2012 - 16:25
|You guys make my head spin with all this information......but what a good learning experience)))|
by OGBS on 29 April 2012 - 01:38
|I'm no expert on structure either, but, he looks like a very handsome dog, Nadeem.|
The one thing that does stand out for me in the photos is it appears his family has a nice bbq grill. :-)
RW tells me he is extremely fast and powerful in the long bite.
I bet his structure looks great doing this!
Keep up the good work and put a 1 on him. Then take him to regionals in the fall.
It's right up the road in Marengo this year.
Best wishes with Bravo!
by Nadeem6 on 29 April 2012 - 01:50
|LOL, thanks for the kind words Steve.|
Yes, we have a GREAT grill. Weber stainless steel Genesis. I love that thing.
by Preston on 29 April 2012 - 01:53
|Coat is a bit too much to see exact details of the front layback, front angles etc. He could be a bit steep or short in upper arm, but maybe not too. I like his short correct back which is excellent. Obviously, this a very attractive GSD and actually very nicely constructed. His croup is praiseworthy, he has NO roachback and overall is proportioned very nicely. I cannot comment on his movement without watching him gait off lead, but I would suspect it is adequate. The only issue i noticed is very slight and that is that he could have a slightly better wither. This GSD reminds me of those from the 1970's and early 1980's. If he has clean joints, good temperament and is healthy, it can't get much better than this. I like the appearance of this GSD a lot.|
by Nadeem6 on 29 April 2012 - 02:20
|Thank you Preston. I heard from the breeder that on the pedigree on the bottom side ,some of the older Schutzhund people were very excited 'cause they knew many of the dogs. He has some "old blood." |
He has wonderful, correct temperament and is in great health and just turned 2 years old this month. He has a touch too much defense but we have a great TD at our club so it is a non issue, and he just brings more prey out of him. He is a very happy worker and enjoys his time training with me. It's a bit strange but he takes training very seriously, but he trains in such a joyful manner, if that makes any sense. I do feel lucky with him.
The joints i will try to get done some time this year.
Here is the pedigree in case anyone wanted to peek.
by Preston on 29 April 2012 - 03:49
|Nadeem6, I am familiar with the dogs in this pedigree. I can easily believe your description of your dog having correct temperament because this type of breeding has produced a high proportion with it. Many of the great GSDs in his pedigree had very strong, notable defense, so this is normal for a dog of that breeding and requires sound training. Many of these dogs had extreme "territorial dominance" drive (usually expressed as total courage and willingness to fight) which made them great 24/7 in home family protectors if properly trained. Much of this has been bred out of the current WL and SL GSDs so I hope you appreciate his courage. You are very fortunate to have such a nice looking young GSD with such desirable breeding behind him.|
by Nadeem6 on 29 April 2012 - 17:59
|Here is the best trot video i have, the angle is off a bit since he is free outside.|
by Louis Donald on 30 April 2012 - 07:43
|Hi Ibrahim - like your contributions and your enthusiasm but need to revise what you have drawn in the forehand - not correct!|
Head parallel planes?
by Ibrahim on 30 April 2012 - 10:40
|Hello Mr. Donald,|
I meant the Carnio facial axes (parallel).
by Louis Donald on 01 May 2012 - 07:36
|Viewed from the side, the top [ line ] of the skull and the top [ line ] of the muzzle should be on a parallel plane just as you have shown on your line overlay. On the dog these lines are clearly not parallel? Maybe I am confused as to what you are saying, perhaps we are in agreement and I am misunderstanding you? No big deal just an observation.|