German Shepherd Dog > Aortic Stenosis Diagnosis - Remedy for Health Guarantee? (15 replies)
Aortic Stenosis Diagnosis - Remedy for Health Guarantee?
by chevl66 on 09 February 2012 - 19:08
|My 8 month old puppy was just diagnosed by echocardiogram as having aortic stenosis. I'm a purchaser, not a breeder. My puppy had a III heart murmur at 8 weeks old, continued to be a III until around 4 months, vet thought it was a II then, at six months again at a III so it was recommended we take puppy to the only certified echocardiogram vet in our area. We did that this a.m. and just got the diagnosis.|
My question is: since I have a "health" guarantee in my contract, what does that usually mean? refund? new dog? Obviously, we're really attached to our puppy and don't want to give him back. I'm really not even interested in another puppy from this breeder due to all of the problems we've already had. I'm just wondering what would be a reasonable request to make good on the health guarantee? (and I'm looking for the answer from breeders) FYI - The breeder has been kept in the loop from day 1 on the health problems and I email vet records every time there is a check-up showing problems. - however, the response I have received so far is...Your vet doesn't know what they are doing...I've never had a dog with any health problem...and most recently no response at all.
by jcmeyer on 09 February 2012 - 19:33
|For a layman to say that the veterinarian doesnt know what they are doing sounds like a problem to me.|
by Rass on 09 February 2012 - 19:59
1/2 money back or replacement dog. What does your sales contract say? What does the breeder have to do if the dog is not healthy?
by Sunsilver on 09 February 2012 - 20:04
|It all depends on what the contract says. As aortic stenosis is inheritable, this wipes your pup out as far as breeding goes, and with that sever a heart murmur, he certainly isn't going to be able to compete in sports, other than obedience! Even that might be too stressful for him on a hot day.|
What does the vet think his prognosis is for the stenosis? Could it be fatal?
by chevl66 on 09 February 2012 - 20:28
|Contract doesn't state what happens - that's why I'm asking what is reasonable to request.|
Vet says inoperable, medication likely in the near future or my dog will just drop dead (in so many words...)
Since birth my dog has not been very energentic - he would climb in my lap and sleep, he still tries to now although we have to lay on the floor since he's so big :-) Won't play fetch, doesn't like to run, he would rather lie at my feet. My guess is he knows his own limits. I am training with him currently, he does seem to tire easily, purely a "lap dog".
I could never give him up for a "replacement" so I will suggest a partial refund and let him be my lap dog for as long as he is able!
by cphudson on 09 February 2012 - 22:52
|I'm very sorry about your dogs health. As far as the the pup's breeder it depends on how the contract is written, but really you should get your $ back. There are lemon laws pertaining to the purchase of dogs & since your puppy always had a bad heart murmur then developing into a serious heart defect it would fall under the protection of the lemon laws.|
I had a Great Dane that also develop aortic stenosis while young. They told me it was doubtful she'll live until 4 years old. She too was very low key & not a normal active puppy. But I kept her active without over doing it, kept her lean, & feed a high quality diet. She lived to be 11 years old. Which is a long time for even a health Great Dane. But she did have side effects from the aortic stenosis. She develop odd behaviors from the results of mini strokes. I hope you get to enjoy your puppy for as long as well.
by Sue-Ann on 10 February 2012 - 02:36
|A pup with a heart murmur should not have been sold to you at all without the breeder having had done the research (echocardiogram) to fully understand what (s)he was putting out into the world. I think your vet should have recommended an echocardiogram long before now. A pup that doesn't outgrow a heart murmur by age 12 weeks needs a full cardiac work up...even if the pup outgrew it, I would still have had the echo before selling/placing the pup (as a breeder).|
With regard to a health guarantee? This all depends on what is written. The fact the breeder has stopped communications with you indicates you are on your own with this. Sorry.
Hope your pup has a healthy long lived life regardless of his origin. If your vet says it's safe, get him neutered.
by SitasMom on 10 February 2012 - 02:43
|Contract doesn't state what happens - - - OOPS......|
Does the breeder live in a "lemon puppy law"?
If this breeder has a litter from dogs that are not relatives? This could be the only option for you.
by chevl66 on 11 February 2012 - 01:41
|No, I don't live in a puppy lemon law state, but I have no problem going to small claims court.|
I am NOT going to accept another puppy from this breeder, nor will I ever recommend him to another person. I have learned way too much about him and he was dishonest (more than just selling a puppy with a heart defect) over and over. I have no faith that I would get a puppy that didn't have some kind of problem. This was a dog he actually tried to get me to BREED - even after knowing of the III murmur (because it's not really that big of deal...)
My vet DID recommend the echocardiogram earlier - at about 4 months, when the murmur didn't go away with growth. I got him fixed right away (at 6 months) and was really waiting to afford the testing.
He was so good at the "new" vet (who is certified to perform echo's) that he just let them shave and test him without any sedation, so it turned out to cost less anyhow. The one reading (pressure reading?) is 242mmHg. They say 6 - 18 months is the best guess for how long he will live. Put him on the beta-blocker.
by chevl66 on 11 February 2012 - 01:45
|Also, he didn't have a vet check done prior to me purchasing, so the breeder didn't know about the murmur until I called him after I took him to the vet.|
He sells as "house-broken", crate-trained, etc. None of them are... it's a puppy mill...
I'm now in contact with some prior purchasers in the same sort of situations, it's becoming interesting...
by SummertimeGSD on 11 February 2012 - 04:12
|I'm sorry to hear about your pup. I was very surprised to see that a vet would put a pup with a grade 3 murmur under anesthesia for a neuter without having a cardiac workup done first, very risky!|
by chevl66 on 11 February 2012 - 05:29
|In defense, she did think it was around a grade II at that time, on a re-check after his neuter, she again said it was a III and then that's when she said we should get it evaluated. I don't want any of this looking like my vet didn't know or catch it at all because she was clear from 8 weeks of age (we brought puppy home at 7 weeks) that it was a III but that we should wait and see if it lessens with age/growth. The last couple of months of delay was due to finances on our part. He was evaluated at 8 months to the day, I don't think it was too long to wait...|
by Penny on 11 February 2012 - 15:56
How old was your puppy when you got him? I ask because you state he was sold as house trained? This would suggest its older than 8 weeks, so should have had a vet check when vaccinated.
My stance as a breeder would be to ask for my own vets opinion, and allow him to liase with the first vet if there was a costly invasive procedure needed to diagnose for himself - then I would go with my own vets advice.
If it were that the diagnosis was correct, then I consider that I owe the people who bought it ALL of their money back, and I don`t expect them to have to give up their puppy, I expect that they will allow the puppy to live its life out, with them, where it is settled and comfortable. you could say that this is their "bonus" to have to keep the puppy as well as a refund, but they are the suffering ones as well as the puppy - because they are now living with a dog with a substantial heart problem, and I would feel that not having to argue, or deal money for puppy, would soften that blow, keep in touch with them, and hope that if they needed help and assistance with the puppy, then I could be there. Mo
by chevl66 on 12 February 2012 - 00:52
|ALL his dogs are sold as house/crate trained. We brought him home at 7 weeks. We've never had a house-training problem, but we took him from crate to outside (on leash), potty, come back in, etc. I'm just saying that this is what people are told when he sells dogs (in person or crating them up to ship).|
I'm not saying we had any problem, but there are just so many lies with this person it's unbelievable.
Interestingly, when I asked the breeder WHO his vet was, he told me they aren't accepting new patients because he was retiring. He never has a vet check on his pups before sale, he gives shots himself but sells them as "vet checked". That's why he had no clue mine had such a bad murmur until I provided my own records.
Once I found out who his vet was and contacted them, they assured me the doctor was not retiring anytime soon and they were still accepting new clients.
We would've taken him to be checked by his vet if he requested. He never did. Seems like he didn't want his vet to know our dog had any problems.
Thanks for your input. We are "pre-planning" with the memorial service so it's all in place when the time comes :-(
by GinaBel on 12 February 2012 - 15:57
The puppy may not have had a murmur when you took it home. Subaortic stenosis is a hereditary congenital disease, however puppies are born with a normal heart and then the abnormal fibromuscular ridge develops as they age. It can continue to worsen until they are 18 months of age. A study done on Newfies which also can carry this defect showed that pups were normal at 8 weeks old. So as you see, your pup may not have had a murmur at all during the first vaccines. Sorry to hear about your pups defect. Since your pup was not medicated, I assume that his stenosis is fortunately not in the severe range at this time.
by chevl66 on 12 February 2012 - 17:32
|GinaBel ~ yes, he had a III murmur when we took him to the vet 2 days after bringing him home (between 7 & 8 weeks old). He didn't have a vet check prior to us having one completed. My dog is on medication now, although I know it can't help the condition I'm hopeful it will give him more time with us, his pressure reading was 242 - I think severe starts at 80, so clearly it is not good.|