German Shepherd Dog > Don't Pet My Puppy...confused? (56 replies)
Don't Pet My Puppy...confused?
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 18:59
My puppy (now 10 weeks old) can't start formal training at the local SchH club until he's had his rabies shot. We went and observed from the sidelines once and besides working on focus and recall I was told to make sure the puppy is "socaiized". Most everyone at the club came and greeted the puppy, some brought theirs dogs, the Instructor even can up, petted the dog and played with him a bit. My pup was pretty cool and friendly with all the people and most of the dogs.
Then I read this....
So is this guy in the PDF just wrong or were the people at the club wrong?
What do you all think about the "Don't Pet My Puppy" rule?
Do I need a new club or is that PDF just wrong?
by Slamdunc on 16 January 2012 - 19:23
Listen to the people that you respect at the club and take things from that website with a grain of salt. I read the first couple of pages of that link and had to stop. There is nothing wrong with people petting your pup and playing with your pup. I do not allow strangers to give my dogs treats and certainly never allow anyone but me to correct my dog. A confident, well socialized dog makes a better pet, companion, sport dog and protective family dog. I think socializing your dog and exposing him to as many different people and places is very beneficial. I do not let strange dogs near a pup, especially larger dogs.
by Hired Dog on 16 January 2012 - 19:39
|I choose dogs that are socially neutral, meaning they can be around all types of strange people, but, not seek their attention. I do NOT allow anyone other then family to touch the dog, never have. I expensively socialize it to everything it will have to come into contact with in its life, take it in many places and expose it to as much as I can, but, no touching from strangers, no accepting food from strangers and certainly not seeking their attention. |
I have read Mr Frawley's piece before and I do agree with it, for the most part.
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 19:47
I thought I was on the right track with the socializing, but then I heard what a good site leerburg was and was just poking around there and came across that article. It went against everything the instructor at the club told me to work on until I can begin classes (we were there last sunday).
My pup now just wants to run up to everyone, people wise. He's more leery/cautious if they have dogs with them tho (like at the club).
I will trust the club and take leerburg with a grain of salt as you said :)
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 19:51
What do you mean by "for the most part". What is it you don't agree with?
Are you in a SchH club and is that their methodology as well?
by brynjulf on 16 January 2012 - 20:01
|I agree 100% with Slamdunc. I want a happy , socialized puppy who thinks people are da bomb. I do not allow competition puppies at any time to be dominated by other dogs as I want them to learn to be little "dinks". Cocky , self assured. I have several breeders who send shy puppies to me for my "little monster" program. I send back horrid , confident monsters. Exactly what they wanted :)|
by Turk on 16 January 2012 - 20:25
|There's something to exposing you pup, pre shots, to areas or people that may contain spreadable diseases - immune system is develpoing, etc.. I agree with Leerburg in the sense that you're training your pup for sch or protection and you want him to develop that way. On the flip side you want a balanced dog that socialized and can turn on the switch when you wnat him\her to.|
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 20:34
I have 4 dogs (including the puppy, Shadow, male) Ages years 5, 4 1, and shadow at 10 weeks.
5yr old is a pit bull mix (Nails, female)
4 year old is a black lab mix (Izzy, female)
1 year old is a GSD Pit Bull mix mix (Pepper, female) (yeah my fault! my last GSD passed away this past Nov.)
The 4 year old lab mix (the biggest of the 4) will sometimes snap and put the pup down on the ground growling when the pup trys to play, gets to close to some food bowl the lab might think is hers, etc. I usually have to grab the lab by the back legs and pull her away. She hasn't really harmed the pup or bite her I dont think, just kind of scaring her at the moment. Should I keep those 2 seperated
the pit will just do a quick snap and bark but never puts the pup on the ground
and the 1 year old, the pup and her are best friends, never any conflict.
In trying to make a confident "little monster" is it best to not let the lab and pup mix? I can never tell when it's about to happen, just all of a sudden WHAM, she has the pup on the ground growling and holding her there.
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 20:48
|Lots of different opinions here, who'd a thunk it :)|
Appreciate all the responses though and I can see the cons/benefits of either approach.
My first GSD (shadow puppy is my 4th) was trained by a Miltary K9 guy back in the mid 70's..She did NOT. LIKE. ANYBODY. who was not family (sister, mom and myself). She could not be trusted around ANYONE but us. She was a hell of a guard dog, but when she escaped, we always wonderd if this the time she bites or mauls a person. She killed groundhogs, she killed deer, she'd jump through windows to chase/kill a rabbit. The dog was INSANE. She had a lump between her ears in the middle of the head we always called her "crazy bone"! :)
She NEVER once acted this way with us, only outsiders.
In the end, the deer chasing is what got her, she escaped and was shot by a hunter in PA during deer season.
by brynjulf on 16 January 2012 - 20:49
|There are many schools of thought on this one. The lab is doing what she should do putting the pup in his place. HOWEVER you want this baby to be as confident as he can be, domination at a young age could be affected by this. ( some pups are such lil monsters this would not affect them in the slightest) Sadly if the lab isnt disciplining the baby then the next dog down the pecking order will do so. This is why alot of us isolate our schutzhund prospects from other dogs. I go against the grain and hike with all of the dogs off leash so that they socialize together. But they are busy keeping up with me so they are not really spending time dominating one another. There is alot of differing opinions on this one i am afraid. You are going to get a zillion differing opinions on this one, I would respect your trainer at the club you will be working with and have them tell you what to do. Then you won't have to listen to "I told ya so...:|
by Slamdunc on 16 January 2012 - 20:53
|I find the best dogs for sport and Police work to be confident, alert and comfortable around people and different environments. A dog with a slight insecurity can also make a good K-9 prospect because of it's wary, slightly untrusting view of strangers, as long as they can go forward with aggression. Overall, I prefer an aloof dog that has no fear of strangers, no fear of new environments and confident to handle new challenges. For sport, I find that well socialized, confident dogs that are not afraid of any decoy or anyone else seem to do better. |
by Red Sable on 16 January 2012 - 21:00
|Jim, was boomer touched a lot by strangers when he was a puppy?|
I know you now say he doesn't like to be touched by strangers, so I'm wondering if they turn out like they do regardless of socialization (the stranger petting part).
I'm just thinking of my own dogs, some I socialized more than others but that didn't seem to make much of a difference in the final product.
by Mindhunt on 16 January 2012 - 21:04
|Zep, I always remember what a good friend of mine who is also a very experienced dog trainer with an animal behavior education said years ago....the only thing two trainers can agree on is what the third trainer is doing wrong.|
I socialized my puppies under controlled conditions. What I mean is that my puppies are protected from bad experiences with people and other dogs. I took my dogs to places where the people were dog savy and the dogs were pretty neutral when meeting a new puppy. Leerburg has some old fashioned ideas and I guess they work for him (he also has some interesting ones that I have added to my "toolbox"). I do not let anyone pet them when I am working them and they have a harness on that states pretty clearly "please don't pet, working dog in training". Some people think it is ok to pet them anyway, most understand when I explain why they can't. When my dogs are old enough and confident enough, I am a little more open to experiences for them but I still feel it is my job to protect them from those stupid clueless owners who believe their dog is being "friendly" when in fact the dog is giving all kinds of red flag warnings that it is not friendly and those people that are clueless when meeting dogs, like the two middle school girls that squealed in delight at the top of their lungs startling me and the dogs when my dog licked her hand, or the child who's dad said, go give the nice dogs a big hug (eek).
Dogs are social animals anyway, they have favorite dog friends and dogs they don't care for, and they should be allowed to socialize when not working. Each of my dogs had a best friend, Ronin had Sophie a Boxer. My son drove from Michigan to Florida and stopped in Georgia where Sophie's family had moved two years prior. Ronin and Sophie picked up right where they left off and were inseperable for days, they slept next to each other and everything. Both of them moped when my son finally had to leave with Ronin (they recognize each other when we Skype).
Sorry, got a little long winded
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 21:04
The pup, while inititaly startled, still hangs with the lab, after an "episode" she will give the lab a wide birth for a while but soon seems to forget it. I think I will stay more diligent there and try to keep that from happening in the first place.
That seems to be the clubs thinking as I was talking to people, meet and greet and be nice to the "normal" people who arn't a "threat" so she understands what/who a "bad guy" is when it comes to that.
by Red Sable on 16 January 2012 - 21:06
|"I always remember what a good friend of mine who is also a very experienced dog trainer with an animal behavior education said years ago....the only thing two trainers can agree on is what the third trainer is doing wrong."|
That is the same thing said of horse trainers.
by ramgsd on 16 January 2012 - 21:24
|I just skimmed over Ed's article and I agree with it. A pup can be well socialized and not be petted by others. They can see other people and know there is no threat and that the only fun/treats are with his handler. They can be correct around other people but they have no value to the dog. This way you never get the "My pup now just wants to run up to everyone, people wise." Why would you want this in any dog? Let alone one that you train in Schh? Now you go out and training the dog and it has to do what you want to get a treat or petting as a reward. Those other people over there pet him up and make a fuss over him and he doesn't have to do anything. In a dogs mind which is better??? Now let's heel through the group. See any issues that could pop up here? Dog sees club memeber "Pets-A-lot" and there he goes.... Also if the dogs sees everyone as a "friend" what happens at the house when the guy who just came into the yard isn't a "Friend"?|
My dogs are fed, trained and titled by me. The only other person that pets them (breifly) is my young son for obvious reasons. That being said I can take them anywhere, even around crowds of people and they under control and have no issues.
by KellyJ on 16 January 2012 - 21:54
I used to read alot on that site. After following that articles advice I ended up with a 6 month old puppy who hated everyone he seen! LOL! Tooks tons of socialization to turn that around. Now he is nuetral to strangers, which is ideal to me. Its a pain to have one barking at everyone, LOL!
by ramgsd on 16 January 2012 - 22:03
|"That seems to be the clubs thinking as I was talking to people, meet and greet and be nice to the "normal" people who arn't a "threat" so she understands what/who a "bad guy" is when it comes to that."|
Believe me, a dog doesn't need anyone to pet him to know the person that's a real threat.
Slamdunc-- about your comment "For sport, I find that well socialized, confident dogs that are not afraid of any decoy or anyone else seem to do better." I agree with you. In the past 5yrs or longer I have seen this as well. If you are pertaining to getting higher scores on the trial field. Unfortunately that is where the prey barking in the blind came from; because there is no threat in the blind just bark and this guy will play with me.
That's why I like the new rule changes in the protection work for IPO.
In the blind the "Guarding must be powerful and focused to the helper." Also
"During the escape, the dog MUST show power and fight.
a. A dog with a less than full grip but fighting and showing power will have less of a point
deduction than the dog that is full and hopping along for the ride.
b. If the dog has the chance to get a full grip and doesn’t, then it cannot be full points, even
on the escape with good fighting. But if the running or other circumstance was the
cause of the less than full grip, and everything else is strong, then the dog may be
awarded full points.
c. Full grip AND fighting will be full points."
by Zep on 16 January 2012 - 22:03
Love that saying too!
Everyone at the club I visited was meeting and greeting and petting and playing, when it came time for the work, the dogs worked even though there was a crowd pf praising petters and fun doggies on the sidelines. Now it's my first time there, but that looks like pretty good training to ignore all that love waiting there. :)
How's a dog going to feel when the judge wants to look at his teeth or touch a males jiggly bits if he's not used to stranger touching?
by laura271 on 16 January 2012 - 22:08
|This is an interesting thread.|
I own an extremely good natured GSD that really likes people and other dogs. I live in a downtown neighbourhood so it would be very difficult for me to own a dog that hated people or other dogs (liability is a real concern). In answer to Rick's questions- I've found that context very much matters. When I tell her to heel through a group of people (with or without dogs) she knows to focus on me. When I'm hiking alone with her on deserted forest trails, she's a very different dog than when we are out walking in our downtown neighbourhood- she's very protective of me.