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ForumsMain > Training? (16 replies)
Training? by DeKal on 19 December 2007 - 19:55 |
| Anyone want to take a break from the soap operas and talk some training? |
by realcold on 21 December 2007 - 04:10 |
| I am in. Pick a topic. |
by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 04:21 |
| yyyyyyeeeeeesssssss PLEASE!!! |
sueincc by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 04:33 |
| okay, how about teaching that "military finish"? The one where instead of coming around you to fus, he sort of jumps/flips around in front and next to you so he ends up in the correct position. I've never trained it, and I don't know how. All I can figure is you start with the dog in front, give the command then twist him manually with the lead? I have also been concerned that with a long backed dog, maybe it's more difficult for the dog to end up square & maybe he ends up sloppy? |
by EchoMeadows on 21 December 2007 - 16:45 |
| sueincc, I don't know if you can influence that flip finish with the leash.... I know it starts out as any other heel starts out, with the dog stepping around, as they get better and quicker and get the "want" to do the heel as quickly as possible so they can have they're "reward" alot of dogs will start to do that flip finish all on they're own, You can sometimes with some dogs encourage them to do it by getting excited about the finish... you know key them up with your voice a bit then give the finish command whatever it may be... And your right, some times in the hast of it all some dogs will allow themselves to get sloppy where others will not... Good Luck. |
by realcold on 21 December 2007 - 17:13 |
| The dog MUST know to self correct when out of the start position. If you and your dog are perfect in this you can easily teach the flip. You would tell your dog to sit and step into the start position. You would again tell him to sit and then pivot to the right about 6". Keep the left leg close so that he only needs to move his rear. Say fuss and help to get him to start. Reward when start position is reached. When he has figured this out you begin to pivot more. Do not rush as it is an easy exercise to teach. When finished you will be pivoting into the front position and using correction to bring speed. The tricky part is that the dog must be given the chance to beat the correction. |
by 4pack on 21 December 2007 - 17:20 |
| Gee don't everybody post at once! I have been toying with the flip finish idea myself. "Should I teach that way or the traditional AKC?" Anyway I need to get some sort of finish on my dog, up until now I hadn't worried about that at all. Right now, my dog sets up in front and I take a step back when I tell him to "foot" then he comes around back. That move just comes natural. I have no experience with the flip finish and not sure I want to teach that for the postioning factor you stated Sue. My dog is a big Oaf, precision isn't his strong point. Also thinking about wear and tear, when he is older he may not be able to do that anymore, then what? I think I will keep it in my realm and ability, keep it simple, since nobody is divulging any tips here. |
4pack by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 17:48 |
| Thanks realcold, the gradual pivoting makes sense, as does giving him a chance to beat the correction! Echo although I have always worked my dogs in drive I have never had one decide to do the flip fininsh on his own, but I'm happy for you that yours do this. |
by Get A Real Dog on 21 December 2007 - 18:13 |
| I do it similar to Realcold. The dog hs to fully understand the heel position. It doesn't have to be perfect, but they have to understand that heel means to the left and focusing on you. Once they fully understand that, I manually use the collar twist and short pivot to correct the sloppy sit. When they do that, then I increase the angle of the pivot, like Realcold. When teh dog is swinging his but into position consistantly, that's when I do it from the dog in a sit in front of you. Once they get the hang of this, then I gradually increase the distance between me and the dog in front in the sit. Once they start doing it from a few feet, then I start doing it in short recalls, gradually increasing the distance. |
by KYLE on 21 December 2007 - 19:50 |
| Wow a training topic. Here's my two cents. I train this with food. With the dog in the sit in front position. I simultaneously say fuss, show the food in my left hand, back up one step with my left leg and steer/guide the dog around to the basic position. As the dog makes the turn to come into the basic position I bring the left leg next to my right leg. I move my left leg because it pivots my hips to allow the dog to come thru as opposed to swinging wide. This movement also gets the dog moving faster. I've found the food gets the dog moving out of motivation as opposed to pulling on the leash. Once they get the idea you can start removing the back step and the guiding with food in the hand. Then I switch to a ball or tug. The higher drive with the objects provides the stimulous for that smart looking flip. This is all about focus work. Of course do this in a quiet location without distraction. Debbie Zappia does a nice seminar on focus work and getting your dog to follow your hands. Which is great for advanced training like hand signals and directed searches. Remember the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong. Kyle |
KYLE by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 19:58 |
| Actually I think your suggestions meld right in with what realcold and GARD are saying. I too usually start most anything with food, then once down switch to higher drive items. I understand exactly what you are saying and I think between food motivation to start, then incorporating the pivot & appropriately timed corrections, and gradually increasing the distances, I'll be in like flynn!! I too have been taught focus is a key element of foundation work. |
by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 19:59 |
| Oh jeeeeez, I forgot to say THANK YOU for all the great suggestions. To me, this is the board at it's best. |
by DeKal on 21 December 2007 - 20:22 |
| Nicely done! Good ideas without drama. What is this world coming to? For those that don't do the flip finish, don't think that you have to change your finish of your dog. You wont lose points or be looked down upon for not doing the flip. Sometimes changing the gameplan in the ninth inning is not a good thing to do. Sometimes it is just better to improve upon the foundation already laid. So what is the next training topic? |
by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 20:29 |
| I think you have raised a very important issue. Sometimes it is much better to stick with the less flashy, if the dog is very correct, rather than end up losing points. |
by von symphoni on 21 December 2007 - 21:02 |
| I have never trained any finish but what you are calling the flip finish. I do it with my border collies and it is a hoot, because... well because they're border collies. It lacks a little zing when the labradors in the service center do it. It looks more like a hard lean to the left and and flop to a sit. I would say that if you are working for precision, you might be best staying with the finish behind as the nature of the twisting in air into position will always by it's very nature look somewhat less precise because there is a freeform period where the dog is turning. I teach it by first teaching the dog hand target and then jump to the target (your hand or target stick held above the dog. If you dog has learned targeting well, he will follow he target with his head and after he gets jumping for the target you gradually start to put a small spin into the jump and step forward so that when he lands he is next to you. you give sit cue and do this repetitively, fading the target when he is jumping well and then focusing on precision placement on the landing. |
by VonIsengard on 21 December 2007 - 21:08 |
| My vote goes to full understanding of the heel position also. The dog should be able to come to the heel position from behind, front, side, out of a sit, out of a down, while hanging out under no command at all. For really showy flip finish, the dog needs to be taught to move their back end first, so they dont just make a sloppy half circle around the handler. |
VonIsengard by sueincc on 21 December 2007 - 21:22 |
| I am definetely working on the pivoting this weekend, even if I never do the military/flip finish, I can see the benefits, fus means fus. |
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