Main > A lesson in vetting (16 replies)
A lesson in vetting
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 13:33
I am not sure which astounds me more - that our breed seems to attract such a plethora of con men and out right liars or that people are so incredibly naive about life that they are easily (constantly, repeatedly??) taken in by them. I can not decide if they are merely gullible or lazy and don't do their homework. The optimist in me feels that perhaps they don't know how to critically assess the information they have and find resources for further information. So in that spirit I will offer some simple tips that hopefully newbies to this board can use to their advantage.
Vetting is a term used in the intelligence community for digging into a person's background to see if they check out. May I suggest it is well worth your effort to do some simple "vetting" before undertaking transactions in the dog world. Thru the web we now have at our fingertips resources ( not all accurate or good keep that in mind) that historically would have taken days, weeks, months to develop. The steps I will outline below I used merely to verify information about one of the posters on this baord and her statements made to the board. However these same steps can be used to verify information regarding a possible business transaction.
When responding to a specific post I sometimes want to have a better understanding of whom I am responding to, or I want to confirm a claim or statement they have made or something has peaked my interest either positively or negatively. My interest got peaked tonight on another thread "How do you price working puppies" by some exchanges posted by EkvonEarnhardt. The thread can be found here http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/66498.html#150768 but I am going to copy and past the three replies that sent me on my quest so you will have some understanding of why and what I went looking for.
At 21:11 Ek posted this Boy that is depressing to hear. So what would my puppies go for.
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 13:44
At 2:11 Buffy posted this in obvious response to Ek's post.
I love people that "prelim" dogs and think those count as good as OFA or A stamps, and talk about how their dogs are "ready" for titles, but aren't titled yet...but "easily" could be because "everyone's told me so".....rubbish.
At 3:11 Ek posted back Mrs buffy you could of just addressed me personally I am not going to break down and cry because of your OPINION. it is just that.. an opinion
by MI_GSD on 27 November 2007 - 13:54
I think I know where you're going with this. shepherdcentral.com/viewtopic.php
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 14:14
This was followed by 2 short posts one from Ek OH by the way a friend just pointed out to me that I sound like I have a litter on the ground right now FACT: My bitch comes in to heat until early next year! she is turn two at the end of this month. So My point was I do have "titles" and wanted to see if they were only worth 500.00.
and then from buffy "EK,your post sounded as if these were pups on the ground....and Desert, I agree there are many good service dogs that don't have titles, and don't need them to be good service dogs. But we were talking about breeding and lots of good service dogs, aren't breed suitable for one reason or another. Some are.
Now I like buffy thought Ek first post certainly did sound like the litter was on the ground wh/peaked my interest. So I started by clicking on the links she had included in her post. What did I find? Remember now this is what Ek stated "My dogs will be OFA and SV rated before breeding takes place was not planning on breeding before then" and she noted that Hanibal would be OFA in Feb. Well his page showed that in fact he was already 2.5 years old so old enough to be OFA's last spring not next and when you click on progeny for either Clarice or Hanibel what we find is that there IS a litter on the ground - DOB 10/25/2007 AND EVEN BETTER had done the exact same breeding exactly 6 months before. HMM wonder about the bolded statement above. So we already have not one but three separate lies. 1. there was a litter on the ground 2. the statement she had no intention of breeding before OFA/SV ratings and when the bitch was over two and 3. the lie of ommision that in fact she had also bred a previous litter from this pair. By the way all of this can be confirmed at her website - see http://www.ek-9s.com/BoogiePage.html and http://www.ek-9s.com/puppies.html.
Now my next step was to click on her user id. Reading previous posts can help you get a feel for the person. I also look for comments they have placed and ads because they all give me information about the person's knowledge and business practices. Finally I look for an email address. Even when it is bogus people often trip themselves up by including personal info that when searched reveals their tru identity.
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 14:43
My next step is to take some of the info I've gathered an go back out to the web and some search engines. I usually start with the email address 'cause often that's the easiest. In this case in google it merely brings up two of her posts here so is a circular loop. So then I deconstruct the email address trying different elements and in this case because Ek is open about her id walla I came up with her website. Now frequently people are not open about their id and you need to do a bit more sophisticated hunting.
I find it very interesting that for someone who proclaims that there is no need for titling a dog that her website consistently and blatantly promotes her dogs based on all the titles that their ancestors have. She also makes many many claims about the training her dogs have but I find it interesting that she herself offers certification for CGC and TDI's which are always two of the three "titles" she presents ( by the way they are not titles). Just for the heck of it I went to the akc.org site and could not confirm the CGC status on either Hanibel or Clarice but somehow that didn't surprise me. The one "title " her dogs do have it a RN or rally novice. Now folks this is done entirely on lead with as much handler help as you need to give tho Ek calls it "complex" training on Clarice's page. No off lead work at all. Me wonders how we manage "protection" training if we can not event train a dog to a simple Bh or CD level which requires some off lead work. As you all know Schutzhund and protection is about obedience in drive. Drive alone gets you nowhere.
The level of deception continues thru her website. For example on this page http://www.ek-9s.com/cleapage.html she talks about Clea one of her first dogs. She states she is a Champion and if you search the web you will find this claim repeated by some of her puppy buyers. Now in North American the title Champion implies an AKC champtionship. A championship from any other venue is distinguished by ASCA CH or CKC Ch or U-Ch for a UKC title. If you check the AKC records she is NOT an AKC champion. Now Ek can not claim she does not know this convention because she in fact uses the U-Ch on Hanibel's page on this database. Now I do not know if Hanibel is a U-Ch or if Clea is some other kind of champion because I really don't care and I saw no further need to verify anything she states since the evidence certainly was mounting re her ability to prevaricate.
Another tool I use that is helpful in confirming information and sometimes pedigrees is the OFA website at offa.org.
by animules on 27 November 2007 - 14:53
I did notice the thread and comments from EK were dated Nov. 2006. So looking at her site a year later could give an impression of the thread not being accurate..........
BTW, I'm not taking any sides here, and I agree researching somebody is always a good idea. Not always accurate though as a couple here seem to get threads pulled anytime their questionable practices are discussed. And adds can be deleted by the person submitting them so not always a history to see.
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 15:01
In this case while it did confirm Clea's OFa status it also told me she was OFA'd at 5 eyars of age well after producing anumber of litters and three years after producing a dsyplatic puppy.
There is one last area which really gives me concern. Ek in her posts and on her website CONSTANTLY promotes the fact that her dogs are trained in narcotic detection. Again from above "I do drug searches S&R ". Now do you know how hard it is to have the proper licenses to do that?? Yet I see nothing on her site that references a DEA license to have such narcotics for training purposes tho she references both "weed" and coke" ( I love the scientific nomenclature) . I also do NOT find ANY information that tells me how she would have the skill, experience, talent and access for such training. Usually people who are training such dogs have a pedigree as long or longer than their dogs in terms of their experience and background for the work. Once again I have to wonder are people really so easily taken in by such claims that they don't look for the provenance?
So why did I go thru this exercise? I just want the users of this board to be clear about taking NOTHING on face value and to question EVERYTHING espcially when it doesn't add up. So what harm some will say if she lies in her posts and on her website that's her business. Wrong it is our business because it is our breed to protect and preserve!
Be clear I am not prescribing or promoting "regulation" or a blind lockstep following of anyone's breeding program even the SV's. This is America and yes people get to make their own decisions good bad or indifferent but for the Ek's of the world - don't piss on us. At least have some honesty about what you do. The need to lie tells me you KNOW what you're doing isn't right. Anyways the bottom line always always is Caveat Emptor - buyer beware.
by B.Andersen on 27 November 2007 - 15:14
Ek had good dogs and she works them. I have seen pictures and video to back it up. I believe she cares about her pups and where they go.I have seen many high powered dogs that were sold from" top breeders" to some average Joe that could not handle them just to sell a pup.In some towns or cities it is very hard to find a PSA Sch club to train with. Rally and other AKC trials are cheaper and a person can train by themselves for. As for OFA I personally see no problem breeding on a prelim. Dogs in Europe are xrayed at a year and rated.I in fact have 0 problem asking to see xrays or a picture of a xray instead of a OFA report..If someone was interested in a pup or young dog pick up the phone and give her a call. I am sure if someone had any questions on on her breeding goals, dogs or herself she would be glad to explain it to them personally. Some of you folks here seem to enjoy raking people over the coals. It is possible that she did not feel up to a bashing today. Opinions are like @ss holes everyone has one. Myself included
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 15:29
Animules, thank you for pointing out the date but just let me state two things - 1. as noted ont the original thread to Peter Peter, This first appeared on my bulletin list tonight and I saw the Nov 27 and presumed it was today since why else would it be popping up on the current message board. I did not go looking for it or search for it. It was just there on the board so either the db entered the above dates wrong or it has a glitch which caused it to pop up on the current message list. Also the original poste of that thread had another one posted on 11/26/2007 re pricing for a breeding female wh/ I had jsut read and seemed to be a related thread. Course that's what I get for forgoing sleep makes for stupid mistakes HOWEVER
2. If the original dates were 2006 not 2007 It actually makes it worse for Ek because in that year she could have qualified her dogs as she stated she was going to. Didn't do it. Keep mind her website is current ( 10/25/2007 litter) , AKC and OFA's records are all current and yet there is no evidence STILL of any thing that she claimed.
Finally re the ads being deleted a useful trick is to search google for the ad and you can usually pull up a cached copy of the ad.
by animules on 27 November 2007 - 15:33
VKFGSD, sometimes people stumble across an old thread and respond to it bringing it back up. It happens often here. No glitch in the system, this one just happened to be the same month except a year ago.....
Again, I do agree people should do all they can to research who they are buying from. It is sad that so many threads here have disappeared when breeding practices are discussed.
by Sparrow on 27 November 2007 - 16:58
I'd like to know how you searched AKC's website for CGC confirmation, I couldn't even find a place to search for it. Not only that but when I put my dog's number in it says he's not registered! Hmmm...
by EKvonEarnhardt on 27 November 2007 - 17:57
WOW what a old thread Well I guess I am out now !!!! So how are you KFC? I am doing great !Let me start off by intruducing my self - My name is Barbara Earnhardt and I live in Kannapolis NC (home of Dale Earnhardt for all you race fans 3)
Well let me clear up somethings I started off as Eanhardt kennels - due to my last name is Earnhardt (my husband name yes he is related) So when Dale had his crash we had calls wanting big BLACK shepherds (for all you that know Dale used to breed. I will have to find out if he did it by KFC standards or not) So We changed our name to EK Shepherds but if I was to register the name with AKC I could not use Shepherds (KFC You can look that up on AKC website) so we went with EK-9s and have stayed with that. Now I know I could of used that to make $$$$$$$$$$$$ you know the last name and living in Kannapolis BUT I choose not to DAMMM think of all the money I could of made!!!! CRAP lol
Yes, I planned to title my dogs but since I am a stay home mom and work downsized and my husband bless his heart works hard enough with out covering the dog fees I decided not to go the last part of the year. I did miss some great shows, and trails. So instead of sitting on my ASK I kept training. So it did not work out like I planned Damm
Yes I did breed my dogs off of x-rays that are posted on my web site for everyone to see (I was being sneaky I figured if I posted them in clear view no one will find them) Like pointed out on this board many times over SV goes off of 12 months and OFA is a crap shop no matter how you look at it. So I decided to look in and research penn hip. Lot of information on it .
My ID name is EK von Earnhardt I was going for something that no one would know who I was :) DAMM KFC found me out !!!! ALL she did was search it and found me I will have to use letters like KFC to hide better next time. lol
YES, CGC Canine Good Citizen is a AWARD NEW FLASH for all those that did not know that Thanks KFC for letting us all in on that. And TDI is a working service dog that is in hospitals and nursing homes and school. DID you know that !!!! which all my dogs have???? WOW what a great learning lesson. and Rally is a TITLE though AKC yea !!!!! I got one of those wait a minute I have three Crap !!!!! I am good. hell even my old retire dog has her CD title and Ichaobad had his and we took first and second places. I did post all of the AWARD AND TITLES on the web site in Clear view even has a link but when I changed the site look it got gone!!!!!!!! but there are traces of outlines on there proof that there was something! but for all you that need to see a hard copy I will PM you a copy if you want cause I want to hide everything!
Now I did CHampion out my dogs and if you would have gone to thier titles you would of see that that are UKC damm if only I had not up graded my web site. I guess I will have to repost them so KFC can see them. If you went to the link of the pedigree you will see that they even say U-CH damm KFC is calling me out on everything. Hey I got it wanna see my RIBBONS????LOL we took first in our classes even went the the Herd Classes and placed 3 and 4th with working dogs!!!! (actually we did that a few times)
And if you type in Clea von Eanhardt on the OFA you will see she was OFA and passed at the age of 5 Damm that is good!!!!!! Strong hips on her and she did has a son that had one hip that did not pass. Damm she is not perfect I must not use her as a brood bitch any more wait I spayed her after her last litter.There goes all my money !!!! hell even Rajah is now retired and Clarice is taking a year off there are all my females what will I ever do for money as I am a back yard breeder (NOT) oh wait I have a husband that works his ask off that right. (love ya baby LOL)
OH that brings me to the "back yard breeder &
by EKvonEarnhardt on 27 November 2007 - 18:30
Crap I had so much more !!!!!! well I guess I will add on
Out of her last litter we saved them from Parvo yes saved spent money and took care of them!!! WOW you know the funny thing is MOST "breeder" that titled and ofa and did all KFC standrads took me they would of put them down and had another litter BOY that is some great advise from standard breeding breeders!!!!!! and out of those three puppies one at the age of 18 months (12 months trained by my self for obeience and Narcotic work ) just dual certified!!! KFC did not say anything about that must of missed it.
Oh by the way KFC where do you breed on the side yard or the front yard. Most I know breed in the back. :)
Oh that brings me to Narco work Yes I do narc work Why> I have teenagers and it keeps then straight knowing that the dogs have free roam of the house their friends when they come over, the cars they ride in and what kind of friends they hang out with. Pretty smart HUN???!!!!! As for training I train under retire and active police officers that worked in the field first hand. Sorry I am not a name dropper. So what do you train on well yes Dea doe not let every one use the really stuff (could you see that?) so we use Singma (FKC that is a substance that smells like the reall thing and can be bought over the counter with no licenses!!!!! it has been on the market for some time YOU can look it up runs about 49.95 and comes in different orders like COCAINE and MARIHUANA yes I know the proper terms thank you.
I noticed you did not talk about my training as for protection why???? there are videos for you to view the movie clips and pictures. I was very surprised that you did not bring this up as I am not titled in PSA or ASR or any thing like that BUt hey lets review. My Hanial none titeld male will do bite work with or without (as my decoyer found out) has no problem being rolled, kicked, hit slung around, carried, jump out windows, worked on slick surface, chair tossed and hitting him, grabbed. Now Clarice (none titled) on the other hand will also bite for real (decoyer knows first hand) and will jump though a window for a bite, in the back or a pick up truck, be slung, tossed around, kicked, hit, rolled , carried will work on slick surfaces. Rajah was a rescue, that brings me to Clea my first dog, She will bite for real to sleeves, leggs, will jump out for a bite, rolled, slung, hit (none titled) up in age so she is retired, and let see Ozzy is 8 months and she is doing prey work, launching for the sleeve and boogie is still too young. Hell I have no list to give you of all that has helped me in training but I hthink that about covers it.:)
But you know what KFC whoops it is VKF I don't know you I don't care too but I will put it out there Come on over lets go work the dogs, I'll do obedience on and off leash, tracking, nacrotics, and protection. Or if you can not make it I will post new video for you this weekend how about that Cause I am all about hiding! yea right.... please
Thanks Bandersen you are right there are many "title" dogs that are chap but hey they have titles and thier hips are check (never mind that the dog is weaker then shit and produce 95% bad hips but hey they are titled and check!!!!!!!)
I love that saying OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASK HOLES EVERY ONE HAS THEM SOME JUST STINK MORE THEN OTHER
KFC 704-932-2362 lets chat I'll even call you back to save you a quarter :)
by EKvonEarnhardt on 27 November 2007 - 18:36
Sorry about the spelling brain woring faster then the fingers :)
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 21:52
Sparrow , you go to the AKC website and then click on store. You must register -it's free. Once you do log into the store. You have several choices. You can order pedigrees but that costs you. If you click on events and awards in the store you can input the dog's registration number and you can get a summary of the dog's titles free before you order. That is how you check the AKC information.
1. I never said you were hiding. In fact I acknowledged just the opposite.
2. If there are factual problems with your website - it is your website not mine and you have control over it - correct it or don't bitch about being called on what looks like deception.
3. As I suspected you simply don't get the point. This was not about your breeding practices - as I stated above this is America and every Tom,. Dick and Harry gets to do what they want. This was about integrity and representation. It appears you deliberately misrepresent items about your dogs and their clearances and level of training -ex rally being complex training - give me a break a 9 yr old can do it. Remember now this is what YOU stated "My dogs will be OFA and SV rated before breeding takes place " Neither I nor anyone else ASKED you to make that statement. You CHOSE to make it AND you CHOSE to say screw it so at least be honest about what you do.
4. This post came about because I am tired of the lying, posturing and conning of so many on this boad and I get really frustrated that people on this board do not appear to have the ability to or want to think critically but when something goes wrong are ready to place the blame everyplace but on themselves for their failures to do their homework. They also can't seem to follow the facts very well either but oh well. I'm sure none of them as you did not will get that my point was simply stop the crap and try being honest about what you do and why you do it.
by VKFGSD on 27 November 2007 - 21:55
Unfortunately after reading this board for quite some time I've come to the conclusion that most of the people on it do not want to be educated because
1. because they might have to work at something and
2. they might have to take responsiblity for their actions and/or
3. they really like to play victim.
by GSDfan on 27 November 2007 - 22:09
I'd just like to say that CGC's dont' come up when you look their name up on AKC's website, nor do they show up on pedigree's, it's not considered a "title" more like a certificate/award. So that is why you didn't find it on there, look up my dog Andy maly vah on AKC, his don't come up either but his certificate is on his website http://andymalyvah.tripod.com
Just wanted to clear that up.