German Shepherd Dog > THE POLITICS AT THE 2011 NASS (119 replies)
by openmind on 06 November 2011 - 17:08
by MARKOPOLO on 13 November 2011 - 14:28
First i would like to thank all who have commented agreeing or not agreeing with my accurate description of the politics at NASS. And to you Bridgroom i would expect you to disagree as everyone knows you are a very big part of the team that presented VA 2-3 males.As i previously stated i was not even in Virginia when i was contacted by a friend in Germany who told me we would not fare well at NASS due to people like Goldlust,Premm,Hohman and others exerting there influence with the Judges Boesl & Woerner, Brian if you cant accept or choose to deny that fact THEN YOU MY FRIEND ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.You are a very intelligent ,astute person and i am sure you seen what others did but choose to ignore it because you benefited from it. Let me point out another item,Frank Goldlust was here to be seen at NASS to influence Herr Boesl PERIOD & TO GUARANTEE A FAVORABLE PLACING FOR NOT ONLY THE VA2 & 3 MALES BUT ALSO THE 18-24 MOS MALE AND GUESS WHAT TO NO ONES SURPRISE IT WORKED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember when it becomes ALL ABOUYT THE MONEY AND THE NEXT DOG TO BE SOLD COULD BE FROM A FELLOW JUDGE AND THE BRATING NEEDED TO SQ
by MARKOPOLO on 13 November 2011 - 14:50
My heartfelt thanks to all who participated in this thread those who agreed and those who didnt,also if you cant understand why someone chooses to remain anonymous you really need to understand the mindset of the people who run this organization.To answer Bridgroom,i think it is fairly obvious to all who take a close look that SV JUDGE GOLDLUST WAS HERE TO INFLUENCE SV JUDGES BOESL & WOERNER AND HE AS WELL AS SV JUDGES HOHMAN M& PREMM WERE VERY SUCVCESSFUL HERR GOLDLUST DELIVERED NOT ONLY VA 2 & 3 MALES BUT ALSO SG-1 MALE IN THE 18-24 MOS MALES AND SV JUDGE PREMM & HOHMAN WERTE ALSO VERY SUCCESSFUL IN DELIVERING WHAT THEY CASME FOR ,IN RETROSPECT I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE THE FACTS AS YOU ARE PART OF THE TEAM GOLDLUST WAS HERE TO PROXY FOR.TRUE OR FALSE HERR GOLDLUST ASKED SOMEONE TO NOT BRING A VERY HIGH PLACED MALE SO HIS YOUNG MALE COULD BE SG-1 IN THE 18-24 MALES?NOW THE NEWS IS GETTING EVEN BETTER AS IT APPEARS HERR GOLDLUST WILL BE JUDGING AT USA & POSSDIBLY NASS IN 2012 THEREBY ASSURING IN ALL LIKELYHOOD YOUR TEAM WILL HAVE 3 VA MALES IN THE VERY FUTURE.We all know how the game works Judge Boesl will need a favor down the roadf and it WILL BE PROVIDED BY JUDGE GOLDLUST and on and on it will go,effectively freezing out the small breeder who mistakenly thinks he can get a fair shot.As i said earl;ier i was warned before i even got to Virginia by a friend inj Germany who mpredicted quite accuratelyu exactly what would happen at NASS.MY POINTT IS IT IS ALLABOUT$$$$ after all he has guaranteed that he can deliver THERBY GUARANTEEING A STEADY FLOW DOGS TO THE US.The system is broke and must be fixed , who knows how this will be acheived but someone must try.
by Alamance on 13 November 2011 - 23:55
|Louise and others --|
I am totally confused. I do not show so maybe that is why I am confused. As I understand there was a guy who was Pres of WDA who suddenly resigned. Then the VP automatically moved into his place. Again, as I understand, this Cindy, formally VP and who moved into the Pres position, did not run for Pres for the coming year. There was a guy running for next year's Pres position. The guy won.
Now who is the corrupt one?????? 1) the guy whose name I do not remember 2) Cindy, who became Pres by virtue of being VP, and who is still Pres until 2012 3) the new guy who is not yet Pres and who was just elected.
Please tell me.
And all this mess with this judge and that judge. Why didn't someone speak up about this total mess???? Who was the Show Chair or the head of the show? Who selected the judges??? Why didn't someone speak up then???
I did not have a dog in the show and I will not have a dog in that next show. Did not attend this one nor will I attend the next one.
I am soooo confused, Sorry!!!
by markk on 14 November 2011 - 03:50
|The only think I can say all about this is that there are some pepole that have a hard with the out come of Nass. So what at your dog did not be come VA you syill love your dog right ? I see a number of you are saying the word COORUPT do you even know Cindy or the new incoming Pres. Dan they all work very hard for our WDA and yes they do not get pay no money for the job that they do. Next time put your name up to be come the next Presiden OF WDA.|
by Dog1 on 14 November 2011 - 13:47
|Open and Marko,|
How would you have placed the class?
by MARKOPOLO on 14 November 2011 - 20:50
That is a very good question Dog 1, and here goes but i will say before doing so i am not an expert and dont pretend to be ,also would you be so kind as too rate them how you seen them as well ? Your knowledge and experience far exceeds mine.First off there should not have been 12 VA Males. VA-1 Tuareg, VA-2 Odin, VA-3 Larus, VA-4 Xenox, VA-5 Zambo, VA-6 Xppo, VA-7 Zamp, VA-8 Camillo, VA-9 Rocco, V-1 Koni, V-2 Waiko, V-3 Liedo, V-4 Kimbo, V-5 Ufoh. Again i do not pretend to have all the answers however it is my opinion that Arak was not deserving of a VA rating as he looked very old in all phases of the show,also Ufoh i believe got his VA rating only to placate John Henkel because he is a very big part of the WDA simply put i applaud all his past accomplishments but he is not ENTITLED TO A VA RATING SIMPLY ON PAST ACHEIVEMENTS. I understand you were not the person who started the conversation nor at any time were you challenging the results but am very interested to see your opinion if you would share it.
by MARKOPOLO on 14 November 2011 - 21:15
Dog 1 - My apologies but i missed a dog that should have been included in my top 13 , Yupp v Heidknapp who had an outstanding show record in Germany was presented well and should have fared better than V-17 at NASS after all he placed far better than alot of the dogs ahead of him in Germany ,i know they are judged on the day presented and there are many variables but he should have been better placed.Also i would like to add i applaud your hard work and think you are to be commended for not playing the games others do and hope that you in some way appreciate someone bringing to light just how unfair the politics are and especially in this years NASS.
by dogwood on 15 November 2011 - 02:42
Wondering if there were political placements for some of the dogs presented at the German Sieger Show, knowing that these same dogs will be sold and then presented at NASS. Maybe their high placements in Germany were too high? How's that for cynical?
I was very happy with my male's V5 placement. Did not have a handler secured before arriving in Virginia. Late Saturday afternoon the handler that I did have told me that he had to leave earlier than expected the next day. He found me a replacement, confirmed Sunday morning. Absolutely no politics involved and I for one did not play the games. Just thought I'd add my personal NASS experience to this thread. However, I believe that if the politics are as bad as presented, then exposing the problem, in discussions such as this one, is the only way to make changes.
People are watching and listening and reading …even if we don't always initially make our voices heard.
by MARKOPOLO on 15 November 2011 - 04:37
|Dogwood, that is a very valid point you make and i think it is fairly obvious that it a real possibility ( German Sieger Show Ratings being manipulated with impending sales depending on $$$$ for higher rating) however if you look at a dogs whole show record it will give you an idea of where they belong and when some dogs repeatedly place better than others and under multiple judges well draw your own conclusion.Does it bother you at all that you do things the right way and someone shows in Dallas and gets a similar position to what Griff got and then 5 months later comes to NASS with a new co-owner ( SV Judge Harold Hohman) and suddenly he vaults past many males who have consistently beat him? And dont forget Hohman traveled all the way to Virginia for what reason ? I wish you good luck in the future and would be remiss to not say i enjoyed you and Griff immensly you have an obvious bond that few people have , congratulations.|
by Dog1 on 15 November 2011 - 05:35
Thanks for your line up. I was sort of busy during the class and had no chance to see who was in there and how they looked. There's something about the dog you are double handling losing lots of places that keeps you pre occupied from the rest of the class.
I'll repeat a couple observations. 11 or so previous VA, as I recall 17 who when compared to previous placements are in the running for VA. You have a combination of performance in the ring on the day, progeny, prior results, hip and elbow status, pedigree, judges eye for the direction of the breed (and I'm sure I'm leaving a couple other criteria out) all factored into placement.
One can always search for what I call 'hollow' VA and find one or two in the class. These are dogs that do not have the record and history to back up the rating. Some have risen to the top, others have gone by the wayside. Is it politics, does the judge really see potential, or was the dog supressed politically in Germany and it took getting him out of Germany for him to take his place.
I find the difference between where Xenox placed and where you had him placed interesting. He's shown well, placed first at the Regional show in Atlanta under the same judge, there's one dog between where you have him and where he finished. If the politics were really an issue, I would have expected him to be further back on your list. I think you're both right actually, VA2 or VA4 keeps him in the top of the group. I'll bet he has the progeny behind him to propel him up a couple places this time next year. His support team has some very good females to breed to him.
Arak not VA. He was huffing a puffing a little out there. SG7 in Germany, excellent producing mother, already VA and 2 VA sons. I think I'd have to include him in the group if the handler had to carry him around on a stretcher. It's the stuff the VA group was invented for.
It's late. I'll mull over a couple other thoughts.
by openmind on 16 November 2011 - 20:07
|where to start? Dog1 and Markopolo--the question of how I would place the dogs--a tough one. Like Markopolo I'm no expert and really struggled. I can basically agree with his ideas on placement--with one big exception--I would move Odin to VA1 rather than VA2--he was VA4 at NASS last year-Rudiger Mai and VA2 last May in US Schutzhund with Bernt Weber, received excellent critiques from both and presented very nice progeny group. Guess I just have a very hard time accepting the fact that connected German dogs can come here with no progeny and be annointed Sieger or Vize Sieger and I think the ease with which that can be done just encourages more of the same over and over. JMHO Not sure then where I would put Tuareg--probably VA 4-6.|
Now it comes out that Goldlust's Xenox placed 1st in a regional show under Bosil and surprise, surprise pulls a VA2 at NASS and he even gets an SG1 on a young male after encouraging another promising male not to be shown. AND THIS IS THE SV JUDGE INVITED BY US SCHUTZHUND TO JUDGE IN 2012 AND THE WDA FOR NASS 2012. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO ENTER EITHER OF THOSE SHOWS KNOWING HOW MANY FAVORS NEED TO BE REPAID? I will repeat myself by suggesting that both the WDA and US Schutzhund have serious discussions with the GSDCA and SC and yes--each other--about the blatant politics that are going to be the ruin of the German Shepherd breed. I also suggest that NONE of the NASS judges--official or "visiting"-be invited to judge again in the US for a period of time to be determined and starting in 2012 and that any current invitations be rescinded. Maybe that won't stop the abuses but maybe it will slow them up until further checks can be put in place and it would send a strong message to Germany.
K9nme--you asked about the corruption. I suggest you look on Facebook where you can read in detail all about the cut throat politics in the WDA. Cindy Peterson, the vp who is president until the end of the year tried very hard to keep the politics out of the WDA and deserves alot of credit for her efforts. There was no way Cindy or anyone else could have done anything about the corruption in this show because the Germans don't bother telling us in advance what they are planning to do. Ms Kirkwood ran for president of WDa but was defeated unfortunately. Not only was she defeated I understand the political cadre that will take over in January are now actually trying to expel her from WDA.
Dogwood--well said about people watching and listening and reading even if we don't always initially make our voices heard. I think it is time we all start making our voices heard---loudly!! I also think we all owe a big thanks to Markopolo for initiating this important and informative thread. Again JMHO
by Alamance on 16 November 2011 - 21:54
|If one does not do Facebook, how can one obtain the very information. Please help me in this regard.|
by Rik on 17 November 2011 - 12:09
k9nme, you can go to Facebook and do a search on GSDCA-WDA. Other than that, I don't know.
by djc on 17 November 2011 - 14:49
|A couple of things:|
Cindy has done a GREAT job in doing her best to keep things FOR the GSD and the MEMBERSHIP! One always has to remember, that the board works for US as members and should be looking for the dog's and our"collective best interests.
Second, WE as the membership NEED to be involved and heard at every board meeting. There is a phone number that members are suppose to get so that they can listen in on the board meetings and be heard if need be. If you aren't getting that number, as I rarely do, contact your regional director or someone on the board it's self to get it. Often times the other problem is is that we as the membership do not know when the meetings occur. This also needs to be addressed and contacts made to find this information out.
These are the only ways we as the membership will know the direction the board is going and the only way our voices can be heard.
by Dog1 on 17 November 2011 - 16:28
|Which brings us to a question.|
Since none of us are experts. So lets ask some questions and get some answers.
Which rates higher a US bred dog with progeny or a top placing import? One has the record, one has progeny. Which is better a high place or a progeny group? Where is the line drawn between how high the place is in Germany and how good the progeny is? Should we reward the effort or pick the best dog?
What about performance in the ring and performance on the field? How does that factor in?
by JudyK on 17 November 2011 - 17:03
|In my not so humble opinion what a dog has done before, in Germany or outside of Germany, should have nothing to do with the placement on a given day. A top dog from Germany can come over and look like snot on show day, have no progeny and waltz up to the helper on the field to be fed the sleeve and receive a top placing. That's not what a sieger show should be all about. Many factors should be considered: condition of the dog on that day, ability to gait with defined stamina, clearly pronounced (and I mean very very pronounced) bitework and last but not least a substantial progeny group. |
Unfortunately, these factors seem not to be in place at this time. For that reason, I personally pay no attention to placings but look at the whole dog and what he can and can't do on and off the field. I don't give a hoot what the dog did in Germany or anywhere else.
Why aren't the judges looking at the whole dog?
by charity on 17 November 2011 - 17:48
I think the ultimate goal is to better the breed. How do you achieve that? By picking the best dog. So what makes the best dog?
by charity on 17 November 2011 - 17:50
didn't see your post before I posted....you said it better than I.
by charity on 17 November 2011 - 17:52
|regarding the WDA election.....it wasn't a squeaker.|