German Shepherd Dog > Putting Drives into showlines? (19 replies)
Putting Drives into showlines?
by hamza166 on 05 September 2009 - 10:17
|If let;s say i was a breeder, and i bred geman showline gsd's in the uk. If i wanted to put some drive into my dogs, which dogs would be good to use to add drives, but does not affect the appearance or health of the German showline in my bloodlines.|
by vom ost see on 05 September 2009 - 13:07
|take a moment and view the progeny of the"traditional show type" bloodlines.....the dog are almost "hair for hair" the same,yet some lines display very good drives for sport,and some are very flat...this can happen also in the "traditional working lines"....you'll notice that the "slovac" countries are breeding into the showlines to produce working prospects...yet their advice"take it for what it is as the dog stands before you"don't breed it !!! could it be that they've hit a roadblock in their program,and need a different infusion of varity to prepetuate the breeding of suitable working dogs???? this same roadblock may very well exist in what we know today as the "high-line dog"....it seems that the only kennel(that comes to my mind) that has produced good working specimens may be "haus dexel"(gerd ???).of the SHOW/WORKING crosses that i have personally seen...their conformation seems to be marginal at best...the same is true for their working abilities...marginal...the best performer from the showtypes that i've seen was DON OXALLIS...what a machine (i only same him in training..nice and drivey)...could it be that the show breeders may be skipping various steps in training and thus lackluster showing on the working front ???? as for which line will transform that particular type...who knows,when you find that combination,the world will be beating a path to your kennel !!!|
by bazza on 05 September 2009 - 13:10
by Gustav on 05 September 2009 - 13:23
|If you could put drive in showlines and KEEP type, color, and structure, don't you think it would have been done years ago. YOU CAN'T!!! Keeping the qualities you mentioned is what got the breed to where it is. As for health, the showlines don't have superior health in the first place...why would I want to keep it. It genetics baby, genetics...you have to change the genepool, YOU people want to keep this Black and orange pretty big thing and don't want to mix in anything that will change that AND IMPROVE temperament and you CAN'T do it. You are going against science with your whims and THAT is why no showline breeder can produce performance dogs anymore consistently. (And if you can't do it consistently you have no credibility in what you do). People Wake -up, no people keep on til you get to rock bottom like the American showline then you have nowhere to go but up!|
by hamza166 on 05 September 2009 - 19:37
|GUSTAV: That is not true. With the clever mind and knowledge of GSD breeding, and time, in 10-13 year if a breeder tried, he would eventually get to a superb looking show dog, that has high drives like the DDR or working lines. It is just that it is a very complex & long procedure, that most breeders cannot do so they do not try. Also we are not even talking about American showline. They are just out of depth. They should be classed as a new breed, and have nothing whatsoever 2 do with the GSD. Once you are on the extremes of the American showline, there is no way that you can get back to less problems, or less extremism or any better drives at all. You have reached ground 0.|
Vom Ost see: Can you give me a link to the kennel, which you think has done properly on crossing the 2 lines.
by vom ost see on 06 September 2009 - 00:22
|hamza166...i'm not trying to prove any point...please re-read my post...vom haus dexel breeds very nice,capable dogs,but there was no implication that they were the premier "show/working cross" breeder,only that after a long history...they breed dogs with good conformation with acceptable working qualities...i've seen a couple,they were nice.i'll assume there's an exception to every rule......there are "working line" dogs with what i consider to be excellent conformation(but that's my opinion only),there are "show line" dogs thay display ecellent working quailities(i'll mention two that i saw"don oxallis,iron vom forstkamp)a friend of mine was working a son of "IRON VOM FORSTKAMP"(KOBY VOM ROCKINGHAM) the dog was never titled,lived in a home with two toddlers(koby was bred from a bitch who was 1/2 working-1/2 american pet type)this dog was solid in nerve and a real monster in the bite work,a very big dog...with amazing power on the distance bite,dynamite muzzel work and thunder in the bark/hold...genitic freak???? who knows????? i have no point to prove nor dispell..only trying to add to the thread.|
by Gustav on 06 September 2009 - 01:53
|Hamza166, You don't have a clue !!! There are plenty of clever minds and knowledge in Germany....far more than you or I will ever possess, and they don't have a showline that produces consistent performance dogs. None! If you know of the kennel cite the examples and the venue of performance where they have excelled. Don't want to hear excuses or opinions, state some facts to back up your supposition. Many of the German breeders are judges for 30 years, they have knowledge and are more than clever, don't you think they would have been developed a dog with the same things you described and high performance. None of them in past twenty some years didn't want this.???...Get your head out of the sand...these lines are too bottlenecked to produce consistent performance dogs. There is nothing but wishful thinking on your postion and the facts are with my position or else you would have never raised the question in the first place!!!|
by hamza166 on 06 September 2009 - 09:33
|GUSTAV: CALM DOWN!!!!!!|
VOM OST SEE: could you send me a link to these breeders, or their dogs.
by Rexy on 06 September 2009 - 10:02
|I am not speaking on ultimate dogsport performance between working and show lines, but in Australia there are several show line breeders that have maintained some seriously hard temperament lines used regularly in police and security work. In fact, the majority of police K9's in Australia are derived from German show line GSD's.|
My boy (above) is one of the bloodlines used in police and security work, hard nerve civil dog performing well in protection training in that perspective. Perhaps not having the agility of a dedicated working line in dogsport, for protection work the hardness and gameness of this line produces a dog capable of sucessful security work.
by hamza166 on 06 September 2009 - 10:46
|Rexy, although the drive in it is alright, i was looking for a bit more drive, and for it to possibly be in shows.|
by hamza166 on 06 September 2009 - 11:07
|I did find a breeder who breeds good german showline gsd's that are nearly all SCH3 and KKL1. They have good pedigrees, and they could b mated to good show dogs with results, that could be beautiful show dogs, with nice drive.|
Below is the link to their website:
Below is a link to a mating test with one of their SCH3 KKL1 'A' female mated to Videx Razor:
Please tell me what you think of their dogs, and what you think of this mating test, and if you could send me links to mating tests which could produce show quality dogs with drive.
I DO KNOW THAT YOU CANNOT GET A BEAUTIFUL SHOW GERMAN SHEPHERD, THAT HAS GOOD DRIVE & NERVE, IN ONE GENERATION, AND THAT IT WILL TAKE TIME, AND I ALSO KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE, WITH WHAT I AM FINIDNG.
by hamza166 on 06 September 2009 - 11:09
However with these amazing show dogs, with nice drives & nerves, rapidly dissapearing, their are fewer possibilties of this happening.
by Rexy on 06 September 2009 - 11:20
|hamza166, what drives are you looking for in a dog capable of being shown, drives to perform what type of work???.|
by myfanwy on 06 September 2009 - 11:40
Before asking more questions regarding the GSD may I suggest you go out to shows and join your local GSD club
There you will find you will learn more about the breed from knowledgeable people.
The way you search for answers and opinions on this web site shows your lack of knowledge and experience and ultimately will not make you any friends.
You will need friend if you wish to continue within the breed as they are always ready to give advice on a personal level.
And further you will enjoy the breed more if you get out and about, start of small and learn from there that way you will make fewer mistakes and hopefully not ruin a great GSD prospect by lack of knowledge.
This post is by no means sent to upset you.
by Gustav on 06 September 2009 - 12:20
|Quote: "I did find a breeder who breeds good German showlines gsd's that are nearly all Sch 3 and KK1" End of quote. So what's your point? The German showline dogs at the Seiger show at Ulm WERE Sch 3 and KK1. What's the difference from them and what you found???/ I think if you did your homework and looked at the dogs in the pedigree of the dogs you found and the dogs at Ulm you would see that they are the same dogs from the same lines equal the same results ultimately. As for adding DDR dogs, if you do that you change the original goal in which you stated you wanted the same "type" black and red show dog with more drive. Can't add Black sable and sable DDR dogs with their low bodie and short upper arms and get the same "type" dog you said you wanted to keep. BTW, I am calm, actually I am laughing at the ineptness of your reasoning...peace!|
by hamza166 on 06 September 2009 - 13:15
|REXY: I am looking for work drive, and posibly ball drive. But mostly work drive.|
by Rexy on 06 September 2009 - 17:14
hamza166, the dogs you are quoting are basically the same lines as mine, all SCH3 and all posess good drives for show lines. My show line has incredible ball drive and should you jump my back fence my show line will nail you with aggressive fighting instinct and defence drive of his back yard with a guaranteed ambulance ride to hospital as a result.
by windwalker18 on 06 September 2009 - 23:25
|There are LOTS of "V" rated working lines around... |
No, not @ the "VA" level, but in all honesty I prefer their conformation to many of the "High Line Show dogs". I would choose one of these "V" rated working line most any day if offered my choice... A few examples... V Olek von der Maineiche, V Xito von der Maineiche, V Gismo von der Mohnwiese, V Paska vom Salztalblick, V Uno vom Stadtfeld, V Metin vom Stadtfeld.. Most of these kennels have produced multiple "V" rated dogs, so it's not an accidental thing. When you look thru them you see good strong backs, handsome expression, nice toplines, good balance... NO Roachbacks... yet their conformation earned them the "V" rating.
As long as conformation shows are so politically oriented, rather than for the complete betterment of the breed nothing is going to change... and I honestly don't see these wonderful conformation dogs being given a "VA"...regardless of their conformation.
by k9ulf on 07 September 2009 - 06:26
|This makes my toe nails curl what you saying here Hamza|
by hamza166 on 07 September 2009 - 07:31
|Windwalker18, thanks & i shall have a look at some of the dogs you have quoted there|