Search forum
Back to German Shepherd Dog
Liked top 20
ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Exports to China (75 replies)
by trac123 on 25 June 2011 - 08:05 |
My original statement and question was as follows:- What is your opinion of breeders who export German Shepherds and other dogs to China and other countries who have no anti-cruelty laws to help protect animals I agree with Donald Deluxe that cruelty occurs in many Western countries, not only to animals but to people too. Just because murder, rape and torture of people happens does not mean it is okay. We have laws which help to protect us and police to carry out the laws. My original question above is about exporting (and in many cases for huge somes of money) German Shepherds and other dogs to countries with NO LAWS TO PROTECT ANIMALS. The GSD bitch on UK TV was being skinned alive in public simply because there is a demand for it and it is deemed to be acceptable within the laws of that country. I could elaborate more on what was shown about street markets and what was for sale to the public but I have said enough. |
by Vixen on 25 June 2011 - 09:54 |
| Donald, I hope your quote: "LOL at this thread, and all the phony, self-righteous moralizing going on" Is not being suggested of me (and I am sure others would feel likewise). For myself, my thoughts and feelings on this subject are most certainly not phony, self-righteous or moralising! Cruelty sadly happens everywhere. However, some cultures have very different views of animals. The treatment of them, with no concern for their physical, mental or emotional well-being. In certain Countries killing animals is the cheapest method possible - bludgeon, poison or for their personal preference to skin alive. Every Country needs to address attitudes in all ways to dealing with animals, people and their pets, transportation of farming animals, the appropriate treatment in abatoirs, keeping of animals and their environment raised for food, etc.... So yes, even on our very doorstep we have cruelty to animals. However, some cultures do not even consider their treatment is necessarily cruel - having disregard for a living animal. Extremely inhumane actions to animals exist and is accepted. The Rescue and Help Organisations are saving, bringing relief, and educating. Pedigree dogs and a high cost of buying a dog does not safeguard it from any inhumane attitude either. Any subject relating to the atrocious treatment of any animal should never be considered lightly or ridiculed in any way. The vunerable rely on all of us. Whether we support Rescue Organisations, write to Governments, sign Petitions, buy products not tested on animals, or even buy free-range eggs! Or some may purely ensure that their own pets are taken care of with great respect and responsibility. But we should not scoff or be cynical of these issues. They deserve better - and we should be providing exactly that. Vixen |
by Donald Deluxe on 25 June 2011 - 13:28 |
| "We have laws which help to protect us and police to carry out the laws." Yes, and in this country the laws that supposedly protect animals are routinely ignored and are given low enforcement priority by the criminal justice system - we'd rather devote police, prosecutor and court resources to filling our jails with low-level drug offenders. So IMO that doesn't exactly give us a superior position from which we can sneer at the Yellow Peril. |
by ciara1 on 25 June 2011 - 16:56 |
| I just read the origanal post, and have to say this.. NONE OF MY DOGS WILL BE SHIPPED TO CHINA! |
ciara1 by Abby Normal on 25 June 2011 - 22:56 |
| Vixen, very nicely put. If caring deeply about the treatment of animals, and finding this particular form of treatment beyond abhorrent is self righteous and moralising, feel free to count me in as self righteous and moralising. Certainly not phony - why would you think any of these feelings expressed are 'phony'? Have you ever been to China and seen how animals are treated? My OH has, and I had the opportunity to go, but didn't want to, as I know it would be too upsetting for me. I couldn't put it any better than vixen. We do have animal cruelty, but it is largely confined to 'individuals' it is not an accepted cultural attitude. We have organisations that will step in when these individuals carry out acts of cruelty - that is the whole point. No we can't save every animal that suffers abuse, few systems are 100% effective, but we can say that if we passed someone in the street beating an animal to death we would not walk on by and accept it as the 'norm'. Animal welfare laws also govern how animals are slaughtered, and to ensure that they are treated humanely prior to slaughter, and that the slaughtering process is humane. No such laws in China. Anyone can dispose of any animal however they wish. So actually I do think we are in a position to make a choice as to whether that is a country we would choose to send a dog to. I think we are even in a position to moralise as you put it. You mention wealthy Chinese industrialists buying these dogs and that they would not end up as 'soup'. What happens when they are old and can't perform anymore, and what of the puppies that are being produced from these dogs that will not make a show grade and will be sold as 'pets'? Also, you didn't answer the actual question DD - would you export a dog of yours to China knowing this? Or maybe you already have? |
Abby Normal by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 00:45 |
| I'm not a dog breeder, so not a decision I will ever make. Do I think others should sell dogs to Chinese individuals? I suppose it would be reasonable to practice a bit more due diligence about the owner's plans for the animal than usual before doing so - but I would hope they wouldn't pre-judge and write off almost a quarter of the world's population as unfit to own a dog as you just have. |
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 01:05 |
| And in a modern world where people move from country to country, where does your anti-Chinese dog ownership stance end? At the Chinese border? Would you sell a dog to a Chinese immigrant in your own country? If not, how many generations of living in the West would you say it takes to correct their thinking and accept tradional Western mores about dogs - one, five, ten? Do you feed your dogs any products containing beef? There are over one billion Hindus in the world who may think exactly the same about you as you do about the Chinese people and culture: to wit, that you're a barbarian or at least that you live in a society that widely accepts barbaric acts. Should they sell you a cow even if you profess to love them? Are you still feeling as secure on that moral high ground you staked out above all those people in China, or do you think it's maybe a better idea to deal with people as individuals and see what they're each made of? |
by Vixen on 26 June 2011 - 01:46 |
| Nothing is 100% - Not even an individual. But attitudes towards life (animals) does vary enormously within cultures of different Countries. Consider children - In England we have the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Children are still tragically and sadly abused, BUT the general attitude towards this abuse is of horror and disgust. But consider some Countries where young children are orphaned or abandoned running the streets ...... Orphanages where children are almost forgotten, their needs barely met. Left in cots, with little communication or affection. The attitude and culture of those Countries accepts these situations, offering little if any care and protection. This is tragically happening to people. What chance the animal kingdom!! Supporting awareness of the needs and care of animals throughout the world should not be ignored, but addressed when and where possible. Rescue, Medication, and Education. It is not a matter of condemning all people in one particular Country, but being aware of how pet animals are perceived? What is the general attitude of care and protection? So what would the chances and balance of percentage be for the future of a pet animal in certain parts of the World? We should care, love and show compassion for all life, some sadly don't, and this scope can be larger in cultures where human and animal life are not upheld with importance, respect and compassion. We can only do our individual part for the best and benefit of caring. Just throwing one pebble in the ocean will have a rippling effect....... Vixen |
by Pirates Lair on 26 June 2011 - 01:53 |
Not all Chinese eat dogs, not all North Americans eat horse meat. |
Pirates Lair by Chaz Reinhold on 26 June 2011 - 02:23 |
| Very good point, Kim. And not all Canadians play hockey, but they talk funny, eh? |
Chaz Reinhold by Rik on 26 June 2011 - 02:56 |
| not sure what you mean by not all chinese eat dogs. the point is that it is an acceptable part of their culture, regardless of splitting hairs over the exact %. I'm sure there are a few Frenchmen who don't eat horse meat, that doesn't change that it is accepted in their country. and it's their country and their culture so I don't have an issue with it. The Chinese eat dogs and make beautiful throw rugs from the skin, and I'm some kind of racist because I say this. some of you have your PC meters set a little thin. Rik |
by Pirates Lair on 26 June 2011 - 03:03 |
| Rik If you are suggesting all Chinese, or the majority of them eat dog meat then think again. “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” Kim |
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 03:12 |
| "Consider children - In England we have the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Children are still tragically and sadly abused, BUT the general attitude towards this abuse is of horror and disgust. But consider some Countries where young children are orphaned or abandoned running the streets ...... Orphanages where children are almost forgotten, their needs barely met. Left in cots, with little communication or affection. The attitude and culture of those Countries accepts these situations, offering little if any care and protection." Economics has every bit as much to do with such conditions as culture does. And before beating your breast about the superiority of English culture and institutions, I'd suggest stepping back and thinking a bit about England's utterly disgraceful occupation of Ireland and how many innocent people there and in many many other lands perished under the British Empire's somewhat less than benevolent hand over the course of 350 or so years of colonialism. |
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 03:24 |
| "not sure what you mean by not all chinese eat dogs. the point is that it is an acceptable part of their culture, regardless of splitting hairs over the exact %." Interesting that you think there is only one "culture" in China. Apparently in your eyes a coal miner in Manchuria = a shrimper on Hainan = a Uighur in Sinkiang = a factory owner in Shanghai. So in a country as large as the USA with five times as many people they all look the same, think the same, act the same and dine on dog, eh? |
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 03:30 |
| Better not sell any dogs to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qre7e9z055M After all, I'm sure after he's done spending months and months training them to fly through the air and bite people in trees he rams a spit right up their asses and roasts them like suckling pigs. Because that's just what "they" do over "there." |
by Pirates Lair on 26 June 2011 - 07:00 |
| - Have you ever been to China and seen how animals are treated? My OH has, and I had the opportunity to go, but didn't want to, as I know it would be too upsetting for me. Have you ever looked around your own City, State, Country and seen how animals are treated? Correct me if I'm wrong, until 2007 Cockfighting was legal in 3 U.S. States. Is Missouri still infamous for it's Puppy Mills? Are Greyhound dogs still killed when their racing career is over? Big name athletes still participating in dog fights? -But it is largely confined to 'individuals' it is not an accepted cultural attitude. We have organisations that will step in when these individuals carry out acts of cruelty that is the whole point. Individuals you say? Seems to me like it is an accepted cultural attitude. I am not familiar with the Cruelty Legislation in the U.S., I can tell you that while Canada has some of the strongest Anti Cruelty Laws, there is no Law against eating a dog. Without writing a lengthy novel, Canadian Cruelty to Animal Laws only apply to live animals. Meaning that if a person decided to humanely euthanize a dog legally owned by them, they could in fact eat it. And no law would be broken. I'm not in any way suggesting that this is acceptable, have a look at your own Cruelty Laws and find out if in fact it is illegal to eat a dog. I'm curious to know the answer. Kim |
by Vixen on 26 June 2011 - 10:43 |
| Donald, "Economics has every bit as much to do with such conditions as culture does. And before beating your breast about the superiority of English culture and institutions", Do you honestly think that my Message (or any Message), was "beating my breast about English superiority"??? - Then read and think again. (Years ago, upon visiting a certain Country, a teacher from my school was given a girl baby (not an orphan) - to extend their appreciation and pleasure of her visit with them. They were not living in poverty, but did not have the same attitude to girl babies as they did with baby boys). Reading this Thread, it seems to be a case of who does what to whom, and who does it worse! I am sure we can all think of just one Town where we live, that for your well-being and safety, it is very inadvisable to walk alone at night, and risky even during the day! However, not everyone living in that Town is out to murder, rob or assault every individual. Unfortunately the general average of safety in that Town is low. Would I therefore take an evening stroll without any concern? - no. Would I not be concerned or worried leaving a child of mine in the care of one of the lovely people living in that Town, who are law-abiding and kind? - yes, I would worry, only because of the situation and attitude that surrounds them. So, yes, yes, yes, we have problems in Society everywhere! Hopefully, we do what we can to help. But equally we ascertain the overall situation, that would be beyond our control, for placing a loved pet. Our animals would have no choice, but we do and act for them. So trying to be aware of culture differences, and what that could mean for the future of our animals is our responsibility. Vixen |
by Abby Normal on 26 June 2011 - 11:40 |
| The Chinese eat dogs and make beautiful throw rugs from the skin, and I'm some kind of racist because I say this. some of you have your PC meters set a little thin. Skinning a dog alive - PC meters set a little thin - REALLY RIK, ARE YOU KIDDING ME ??? Individuals you say? Seems to me like it is an accepted cultural attitude. It is an accepted cultural attitude in China. Kim In the UK cock fighting is illegal. The practice of eating dog meat in itself, whilst I feel it is wrong, is not such an issue for me as the way an animal is treated and then how it is killed. If a dog were treated well and was eaten after having been humanely euthanised, I could live with that, I wouldn't like it but I could live with it. I doubt that most countries in the western world have ever seen the need to bring in a law against eating dog meat, since it has never been a part of western culture. Are Greyhound dogs still killed when their racing career is over? Yes, and the animal welfare laws in the UK are changing and welfare groups (in the UK at least) are attempting to stop this. The number of Greyhound Racing tracks has diminished hugely, as people recognise the cruelty that follows the end of a racing career. This is how animal welfare laws work - to change the things that are cruel and should not be accepted practice. Big name athletes still participating in dog fights? Individuals. Same with puppy mills. DD How the British treated any other nation can be applied to many nations historically. How about slavery? It's a sillly an irrelevant argument and is totally unrelated to this topic. Although legislation has been instituted over the years and consequently some of these things cannot happen anymore. China is a country that has a a poor record on human rights and no animal welfare laws. Are you still feeling as secure on that moral high ground you staked out above all those people in China, or do you think it's maybe a better idea to deal with people as individuals and see what they're each made of? YES, I still feel secure, we will not accept animal cruelty and will prosecute those who perpetrate it. China - as a nation (and it's government) fully accept animal cruelty, and don't even see it as cruelty. A cultural attitude cannot be broken down to individuals. Some chinese do not support the practice, nor indulge in it - a significant amount do. The street sellers that sell dogs for meat were banished during the olympics! Vixen again is right this is not an argument of who does what worst - it is a question on whether you would feel comfortable exporting a dog to China, knowing what they consider acceptable treatment of dogs. |
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 15:26 |
| "it is a question on whether you would feel comfortable exporting a dog to China, knowing what they consider acceptable treatment of dogs." Again with the "they," which is what I deplore about your line of thinking. |
by Vixen on 26 June 2011 - 16:12 |
| Donald, I feel sure that the "they" was used as in general conversation, referring to a general situation. For example; "I heard it's a good Club, they are very friendly". Now "they" may not necessarily all be very friendly, but the general knowledge of that Club is a good friendly one. Our Messages may have certain errors, and if Proof Read - the Writer may have chosen to write; "Knowing what this Country's culture consider acceptable etc" - or perhaps maybe not. (It is the Writer's decision and their Thread or Message). The Topic is very sensitive for a lot of people. Was there even a possibility that you may have chosen to misunderstand what was written, because of your own strong feelings on this matter? (I do only mean possibly). Remember we are not writing a book, and therefore requiring a Draft copy first, to be Proof Read before the final copy. Communicating in text rather than spoken speech, can easily be misunderstood or misinterpreted, as is sometimes observed. Vixen |
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!