Cent, I cannot speak for others nor do I want to write a book here explaining the use of the E collar, however, for me, it works because I know how to use it, unlike your friend who despite your claims of knowing how to use one, did not as per your example.
I have competed in human sports, body building to be exact and many people use substances that enhance the size and look of the muscle. Is it cheating? Not if most people are using it and its not against the regulations of that association.
Even in those countries where its illegal, it is used to train dogs, everyone knows this. I dont understand why people feel that using a prong collar is ok but an E collar is not. I remember 25 years a go, assholes would sharpen the prongs on the prong collars to be more "effective" when used. Again, proper decorum prevents me from properly explaining to you how I would like to spend some constructive time with people like that.
I use the E collar like you use a leash, to communicate and when I need to, correct a dog at a distance or even near me. There is no exaggerated body language from me, the dog does not get cued or stressed and I have never had a dog come back on me because of E collar use.
I dont need precision, I do need immediate obedience to my command and I get that, once the dog is trained and proofed.
Hired - First my comments about e collar are not directed to you . And I have no problem with the use of it in general with people that use the e collar as you perhaps may use it , for the record. I have difficulty with the how , when , why and where people misuse the e collar especially for their personal gain . To me , to get a few stincking points in order to win a competition is assinine , egotistical , obsessive /compulsive , - my subjective viewpoint . Is winning and getting a trophy really really that important ? I can think of much more important matters in life.. and BTW - I have enough trophies so this is not sour grapes gripping. I also take offense that people give the seminar /clinic circuit taking money from people teaching them something that is a buzz fad and when in reality only a few that put their dogs through all that stim get a trophy . Whatever happened to simply saying "NO" . " GOOD" , "WRONG " , "THAT'S IT " to your dog ? . Personally , I do not want a little tickle from a devise for my dog to pay heed to me . IMOp I want my dog to listen to me !! And I want my dog to think the world quakes if I have to say NO ! Also , I want my dog to feel the greatest it can possibly ever could feel when it hears the word " GOOD" . For whatever that is worth or not worth as an opinion … I want to be all inclusive with my dog .. not neutral , out of their mind or the big picture !…
Now a few things to clean up: dogs are ALWAYS are reading our body language as they are more visually cued and orientated to our body language . They respond more to our bodies than they do our mouths.. This is most natural for them and that is how they most often communicate in a pack .
My police officer friend , he did use the e collar correctly , for the dog did come off the upper inner arm bite and therefore "outed from the bite' when told to without the use of current . But , the dog outsmarted him because in the dog's mind the outlook was : " ok , I outed from the arm , but I am going to bite the leg " . The same thought process of a dog coming off a sleeve clean when told to do so but takes the liberty of a dirty bite on the sleeve again . In the dog's head " I outed " . So the e collar taught the dog to out , but the concept of the dog outing and staying out was not learned , just as that would not have been learned with dirty sleeve bites. This is akin to telling the dog to sit and it sits . But a dog sitting and staying sitting in the dog's head are two a entirely different concepts !!
BTW , ALL Learning is Stressful to a dog . Even Positive learning, learning that is fun , is stressful to a dog. All kinds of Learning carries an element of stress . Avoidance Behavior is very very very very stressful to a dog …. and as I wrote utilization of an e collar is qualitatively another different kind of a stess to a dog . That stress using a current affects their minds . I do not even want to get into a biological neuro-physiological aspect to this. This perhaps would too medically invloved to many readers, so I skip this . Sometimes the use of the e collar is necessary but many times it is not . Hired , except for bite work in which I use a harness and leash , when I teach Obedience I do not even use a collar /leadh on the dog !! And for the record ….. I use a lot of my body to communicate to the dog . Especially my eyes !
I end talking about this topic … for my goal is not to try to convince or persuade anyone but rather to merely to have people think … Just think … would you like to be taught via electric current.. And BTW , electric current use at times … can be counter to the learning process and can slow down the learning process, simply because the dog can possibly be more concerned about the recieving the current than performing the task that it is supposed to be doing !! Again , something to think about if any one opts to use it …
Cent, in a perfect world our dogs would listen to us all of the time and they would not get distracted and they would worship the ground we walk on, but, I dont live in that world, I live in the real one where life happens and I need to be ready for anything at anytime. Yeah, you can speak of your voice and the ground shaking and all that, but, that is fantasy, not reality.
Dogs have their own agendas they want to go after at times and its at those times that a reminder is needed.
I find the E collar to be that reminder and it has worked extremely well for me. That is the last time I will discuss its use and benefit.
I find it odd that you complain about competition and such and then include your prerequisite trophy comment...how did you get those trophies? I am going to guess that either you competed or you bought them to tell yourself how great you are.
I also find it odd that since you are so experienced, you do not understand that the E collar is not there to train fundamentals, its there to proof, after the teaching is done.
I have personally never been taught using electric, there were other methods to train students back in Europe when I was growing up, some not as pleasant as electric, but, again, I do not use the E collar to teach a dog.
Sure, all training is somewhat stressful to both dogs and humans, that is where you hope genetics come in and you have a strong enough base to work out of. See, that so called training is not really that Cent, just like with humans, its a selection process. The dog will either have what it takes to get passed it or it will be sold to the USA as the next best thing that ever lived.
And now, since we are at this point, tell me, what kind of corrections do you use? I dont want to hear that you use your eyes or your feet or your voice, I am talking about corrections when you have a dog that does not want to follow your directive.
Do you use a leash and a choker, a prong, an E collar, what....
Re: the e-collar, IMO, it is best used at the lowest level required to effect a correction. Then you have to assess if the stim is having any negative impact on the dog. Some dogs are stressed and some only notice to the extent that they clean up the behavior. With my dog, I have found his working level on the collar and see zero stress and nothing different from a prong correction except that I can now train him without a leash in obedience. So in going for precision, I get the desired results with no stress to the dog. Regarding modern high level human athletes, there is a lot of technology used to get the best performance. I mainly use the e-collar to keep my dog's head from dropping during heeling (especially on turns and about turns) and to clean up any crooked recalls to heel. It is not about being robotic. Sport is a performance and you want the best performance based on the training, handler and dog. and again, the precision translates into reliability.
Apple …… " keeping the head from dropping in the turns " . Apple if you are interested I will write to you in a PM decribing how I interact with my dogs such that the head will not drop in the turns . This is so emarkbly easy to teach Apple … I am asuming your heel is with attention , but of it is a , normal waking heel by the dog , no difference , the head will not drop . I admire what you do with your dogs so I say to you that you are welcome to PM . If not that is ok …
Hired .. Because of your attitude in your attitude , you will get no words from me and I will not share with you how I interact with my dogs. Many times you are quite condescending and disrepectful to me. I don't mind someone strongly , very strongly disagreeing with me . I welcome debate , bracuase that is how I can better myself , by listeneing to other people . I understand extraordinarily well : why you use an e collar , how you use it and when you use it - I wrote specifically I have no problem with you or your use with it. I won't be condescending to you - but you will get no more words from me or an answer to how I interact with my dogs . Sir , I leave that for you to figure out for yourself…..
Apple , I have read all his posts and I am quite sure he uses the e collar with utmost skill and diligence too -I admire him for his experience and what he does with his GSs . I clearly stated that I have a problem with people going around preaching it's use to exploit people leading them to believe that they will become winners in trial at the dog's expense , having their dogs act so nunnagurally and like a emotionless , artificial robot. Also I have concern for the novices picking up and using e collars without the guidance and knowledge needed to use it .
why e-collar is so much necessary to use, particularly with mainly submissive, non aggressive dogs of today?
Valk, that is not how the E collar is used. I have never owned a submissive dog nor one that could not be aggressive to get the job done when told.
PM me Centurian.
I agree with Hired Dog. Dogs come with all different types of traits. Used correctly, you are not severely punishing the dog.
don't know. ordinary collar and leash was only tool to control dog for me.
before we didn't have such thing. later it's turned out i not really need it.
i guess e-collar could be beneficial for handler as means to confront dog's teeth in conflict situation but i would prefer it comes
to my dog directly from me and not from some abstract, pain inflicting gadget.
dogs pretty smart pack oriented creatures and wouldn't object after you proved to be stronger and smarter. that best way to earns
dog's respect and unquestionable loyalty.
Valk, crude versions of E collars have been around for a very long time. Those were not training tools, they were meant strictly for punishment.
No, an E collar is NOT meant to confront your dog's teeth in a conflict situation, these issues should have been solved long before they come up during training.
As far as the dog knowing where the correction comes from, there are many schools of thought on that. Some trainers want the dog to know that the correction came from the trainer, others, like me, prefer the dog to think that the negative behavior it showed or engaged in caused the correction.
Lastly Valk, since I am smarter then the dog, I do not have to show it how strong I am, I do not engage in battles of wills with the intention of making my dog feel stupid or whatever...I do take 51% and give my dog 49% of the relationship.
I am also in charge of all resources, food, water, toys, etc, thats why the dog respects me, it knows instinctively where all good and bad things come from, I dont have to force it nor questions it.
Loyalty Valk is overrated, the dog is loyal to the hand that feeds it, yours today, mine tomorrow, etc.
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