The German Sieger Show 2019 - Page 3

Pedigree Database


by Mackenzie on 28 August 2019 - 17:08

apple - All Breeders face very difficult decisions at sometime and, with such a situation that v Stephanitz faced at the time, a Breeder today in extreme circumstances may consider the option. It is very easy to criticise a Breeder but breeding is not an exact science and mistakes are made.


by apple on 28 August 2019 - 17:08

Actually from the beginning of the breed, there descended from Horand "Old Blood" or an "Old Working Line" as well as an "Old Show Line." Klodo is considered the bringer of "New Blood." Roland strengthened the "Old Show Lines" in terms of structure but largely contributed to shyness and lack of courage. Some believe the temperament issues were largely stabilized by 1947 with the dog Rolf vom Osnabrucker Land. But the breed is always being reconstructed and the SV continued to make poor choices in terms of selection by putting so much emphasis on structure and you see the lack of courage and drive in the show lines today.

by Mackenzie on 28 August 2019 - 19:08

We have drifted away from the questions posed in the first post on this thread and I think that we should return to that theme and get some input from the readers.


by Rik on 28 August 2019 - 19:08

the "drift away" and the opinions/views from so many different experiences is what most often makes these threads interesting and worth reading and responding to.

but returning to the original post, of course there will be some different dogs at the top, they will all be very deep blk/red, nothing new as far as genetics, very heavy built and not so athletic looking. and of course all will pass a courage test that is almost laughable for a dog supposedly bred for courage.

there was a time long, long ago when a Sch. title was almost a sure thing for a strong dog. not saying a perfect dog but it meant something.
(oops, sorry, that may be a drift.)


by Klossbruhe on 29 August 2019 - 03:08

In terms of the Working Class Males, several of the VA dogs from last year have been campaigned again. Judging from the various LG shows so far, it looks like Quoll will put Willy vom Kuckucksland Sieger again. He won the large strong class LG3 show on August 11 beating out Quenn von der Piste Trophe and Henke vom Holtkamper Hof, both VAs from last year. He also won the LG10 show in early May although it was a small weak class.

Last years, VA2 Kaspar von Tronje, looked like he might go Sieger this year winning the LG6 show in June beating Quentin vom Regina Pacis in an indifferent class. He won again in early August in the LG20 show with no real competition in the class. Tellingly, Messler pulled him in the LG10 show where Willy was also being shown and Quoll was judging. If Willy is not shown this year, a la Gary vom Huhnegrab like last year, than maybe Kaspar has a chance.

As for any of the other VAs from last year VA3 Willo vom Klostermoor has a chance going V1 under Quoll in the August LG8 show beating out VA Finn in a large pretty strong class. He was also Belgium Sieger, though meaningless, and won the LG9 in a small weak class.

VA4 Cyrus vom Osterberger Land won the LG1 in a large but indifferent class. He also won the LG18 show which was small and weak.

None of the others from last year look like they have much if any chance although Zenit, Dingo, Jax and Cronos could all go VA at the end of the line so to speak, if they are shown...

Last and sadly not least, there are the important factors of politics and money. Certainly things would change if no one was prepared to pay the outrageous prices that are charged for VA and high V dogs. If no one was prepared to pay more than three thousand Euros, money would cease to be a factor of any import. As for politics, unfortunately as Aristotle wrote, Man is by nature a political animal...

by old shatterhand on 29 August 2019 - 13:08

Three thousand Euros, this is pathetic and an insult to the breeders or owners of those dogs. Just for example some American exhibitors spend between $100,000-200,000 a year on dogs shown in toy class or some other classes as well in AKC shows. Dogs which don't have any training, nor much work put into them. Do anyone realize how much money cost to show show a dog in Germany at the BSZS ? Even if you have the best dog but you don't campaign the dog in Germany for at least few months before the Sieger Show you have no chance to be placed high. Secondly is who you know , here goes judges and the handlers. All I can say is very expensive ,and many good dogs can't be shown because not many foreign breeders can afford it. Sure the top dogs are expensive, but the money which are spent on those dogs are also huge.

by Klossbruhe on 29 August 2019 - 16:08

Basically, you have just made my point. There is no reason why showing a dog should be so expensive. It is because there is a lot of money to be made by selling dogs which place well. Back in the day, people showed their own dogs and did not travel all over God's Green Earth doing it. This was true in Germany. There are pictures, for example, of Hermann Martin showing his own dogs in the fifties before money changed everything. Showing was not expensive and dogs did not go for huge sums of money. Why should people have to hire expensive handlers. Why should show judges have to have their palms greased? The Germans discovered PT Barnum who gives us the answer...a fool and his money are soon separated.

While showing can be a valuable tool for breeders trying to improve their stock is and by no means ridiculous, the show scene as it is today is ridiculous, and the prices for dogs bear no resemblance to any real value. To give but one example, you can buy a nice violin, not a Strad, but something nice as I did for $5000 in 1976. I sold it for $49000 in 2002. If I bought, let us say a V15 dog in 1973 for $5000, what could I get for it in 2002? People are not buying these dogs as investments...

When he was 7 years old, Lasso vom Neuen Berg was sold for $370,000. Assuming the owner could get $1500 per breeding...well do the math. In any event, it is unlikely that the owner recovered more than $50,000.

The show scene has been ruined by a bunch of wealthy people with money to throw away who themselves are not breeders and usually know little if anything about GSDs and pay exorbitant prices just so they can say they own a dog which placed high at the Bundessiegerzuchtschau. The answer in one word.....Ego. Once the Germans learned this, the game changed forever.


by Hundmutter on 29 August 2019 - 18:08

Sadly, Klossbruhe, some of us think there is much truth in what you say !

by Mackenzie on 30 August 2019 - 14:08

I think that if he is there then Willy will make Sieger. I hope that Kaspar does not make Sieger or even Vice Sieger but I think politics will come in to it. I know the mother of Kaspar, who is also mother to Schumann v Tronje. The first time that I saw Anuschka she was a very shy dog with a very weak character. As I walked in her direction she was on the lead and pushing very hard into the handler until she was behind him. I formed the opinion that she could never pass the sch test. She was in my opinion completely unsuitable for the bite work. I also knew Anuschka’s mother, Nadia v Jabora, who was a very good female who was very firm in her character.

I think that nothing or very little will happen this year. I think that a change at the top of the SV is needed and perhaps it is time that judges come under scrutiny. In also think that bloodlines from the working dogs should be introduced in the Show Dogs breeding. There is some very good dogs with very good construction.


by Klossbruhe on 30 August 2019 - 17:08

As I am sure you know, McK, a dog is more than one parent. I have seen Kaspar's protection work on multiple occasions. There was nothing wrong with it and it is certainly much better than Schumann's. I was with him with Nikki last year at the BSZS. He was friendly, did not back off or growl and did not seem bothered by all the people in the staging area. His problems are in the rear, not his temperament.


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