The German Sieger Show 2019 - Page 17

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emoryg

by emoryg on 17 September 2019 - 02:09

That last dog Tao is a good example of how infusing additional prey into the gene pool may bring more parity with today’s breeders of sporting lines for protection work in IGP.

Valk, 90% is gracious number.


Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 17 September 2019 - 05:09

V17  1114  Tango vom Klostergarten 

Peter Beck  Eckartsberga/Seena  D



by Mackenzie on 17 September 2019 - 09:09



Valk - When you say "there are no "worthy working dogs" in show breeding by default" that is correct - at this moment in time. If you read my question again you will see that it refers to the future, not today and not to the past.

Your comment "if it will make you feel better - even GSDs of today's so call working breeding, very, very rarely produce the dogs, being worthy to look at has a very simple answer. For a period of time the sole aim of the working dog side was focused on the bite work and completely ignored what was required in the Breed Standard. The result of this attitude was that the conformation of the dog changed completely and not for the better. Totally irresponsible because it will take many years to correct the situation even if the breeders know how to do it. It gives me no pleasure to see the breed damaged solely for the bite work.

To say that "90% (or maybe more) is untrue because you do not know that, any more than I, or, anyone else does. There is no way of knowing. It may well be that the figure is high and, it also may be possible that many of the failures will be able to work in other disciplines and this will give them some value.

When you say "and you're very wrong, saying " thread has been hijacked and consumed with the bite work again". I would draw your attention to the questions raised in my first post. To help you the questions raised are " Where will the Judges take the breed this year? Will it be just more of the same? Will they be brave and bring fresh blood to the breed? Will they bring worthy working dogs to high places based on what they offer to the breed? You will see that there is no question raised concerning the bite work. Please do not try to fool the Readers by trying to say that I am wrong. Even your final comment was about biting. If that is not hijacking by going off the thread then I do not know what is. Why don't you stop posting on the latest thread until you really know what the thread is about.

Mackenzie
 


Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 17 September 2019 - 12:09

Mackenzie,
We go through this every year around this time. I remember addressing you on this subject a while back on this very same thread.
The fact of the matter is sir that for the last 50 or so years, the GSD breed was synonymous with police work, that was the crowning achievement of it. People would look at a GSD and call it a police dog, even though it was just someone's pet.
When you told the world at large that you worked a police dog, everyone assumed that it was a GSD.
That has changed drastically since those in charge of the breed decided that breeding away from working animals, and all that it involves, was the way to go.

In your last thread you make it sound as if the working people are the ones to blame and that they pushed the show crowd to breed what they breed. Do you actually believe that to be the case sir?
As to your questions that sparked this discussion, the answers are "NO", there will be no working dogs ever shown at this level, there will be no judging dogs any different in the future and that is because the money is in show dogs. Society at large has also decided that dogs that bite have no place in today's world because they are "bad". Of course the pussyfication of today's world has contributed to these ideas greatly as well.

At the end of the day sir, the show side needs to find a different name for the breed they created, one more appropriate for what they want and will continue to breed for. They certainly have the money to do so and it will save everyone having to distinguish between these two very different specimens. Have a great day.

by Klossbruhe on 17 September 2019 - 14:09

Having just come back from the Sieger Show, my 15th since 1995, I have read all of the posts I missed and I noticed a persistent comment from several posters that the structure of SL dogs is either not suitable or gets in the way of protection work. I do not know what these posters are basing this on, but I do not believe it is science.

I have seen several videos of protection work and the effect that the impact of the bite has on the back of the dog which have been made by veterinary orthopedic specialists. The videos show both SL and WL dogs at normal speed and slow motion with radiograms of the spine and other parts. I have attended two seminars on this subject where such videos were shown, one of them hosted by Dr Messler back in the 1990s,and the conclusion not just of Dr Messler but of university clinical orthopedic veterinary specialists who made the videos was that the modern back which the SL have is far better suited to absorb the shock of impact and to offer less chance of permanent injury to the dog than that the flat or concave back.

If that is in fact the case, then this information has not filtered down to all that many WL breeders. In my decades in GSDs I have not seen many WL dogs that made ten years of age without being pretty arthritic.

It also seems to me that many of the posters here have equated working ability only to bitework or to being a police dog in a criminal unit. In Europe, the GSD is used as a customs dog, bomb sniffing dog, avalanche rescue dog in Alps, cadaver dog, therapy dog, herding dog and several other activities.

As I wrote at the beginning of this thread, money has played a great part in harming our breed. However, it is not the sole result of the change in temperament we see today. As one poster noted, society has changed. Speaking as a former law professor, the issue of liability looms large in many countries such as the US and Germany. After the terrible attack in Hamburg by pit bulls some years ago on children in a playground, why do you think the SV changed the name of the test from Schutzhund to Vielseitiges Prufung and then acquiesced to IPO as a title. Dogs of yesteryear which were used by the criminal police, the military and prison guards etc., though very suitable for those jobs were often too sharp to be integrated into society. This does matter more now than back in the day when the rule was every dog is entitled to one bite. No more today, see you in court is the order is what you hear now.

So there are many occupations a GSD can do and in my opinion most still require some work to do or they will find work on their own, usually destructively. Lastly, I would note that Stephanitz wrote that the GSD must be a family companion. In Germany that had a different meaning then it does today, especially in the English speaking countries. Though perhaps not in Germany, where even today, GSDs are rarely found in peoples homes, In their gardens and backyards in outdoor kennels, yes, but not often are they found in the family house. In the US and most of the rest of the English speaking world, a companion dog is a dog which does live in the house and is not a dog which will go off on any stranger without just cause.

I do recall the time when GSDs were called by most as police dogs, but back then many also had the reputation of biting strangers without warning and sometimes turning on their families and you could often read warnings about this to prospective owners.

If all we want for our breed is to be a dog which can work for the criminal police, the military or prison guards, then I take no issue with those who say it is a shame what has happened to the temperament of the GSD. One poster even suggested the GSD should not be a pet dog. Again, if that is the goal, then I can take no issue with those who bemoan the change we see in temperament. However, society changes, the world changes and the general rule is adapt or die. Perhaps some would be happy to only have a very few GSDs bred and only in the hands of the military, the police and prison guards. Not me.


by Mackenzie on 17 September 2019 - 14:09

Hired Dog - Regarding your comment "In your last thread you make it sound as if the working people are the ones to blame and that they pushed the show crowd to breed what they breed. Do you actually believe that to be the case sir?", the answer to your question is NO.
I was responding to a comment by Valk when he said " "if it will make you feel better - even GSDs of today's so call working breeding, very, very rarely produce the dogs, being worthy to look at". My response was "For a period of time the sole aim of the working dog side was focused on the bite work and completely ignored what was required in the Breed Standard". This was in a period of time when dogs were being imported from Czech and other eastern bloc countries. Anatomically they were well off the mark and when used in a mating the production reflected that.

Before Hermann Martin's time as President all the dogs both show and working lines came from the same background. It was Hermann Martin who drove the wedge between the show and working dogs. I remember when his predecessor, Chris Rummel, was President. he placed a dog from the working side in a high place. When he was asked at the Judges meeting why he put a working dogs so high up his response was that he was there for the working people. He hoped that the placing would encourage more use of the dog by both working and show line people. Rummel thought that the dog had much to offer to benefit the breed.

There is no need for the show side or working side to find a different name to reflect their interests. Whether the dogs are for work or show we are still and, will remain so, one breed. Remember von Stephanitz's words "We are a working breed that can be shown". He also warned that the money men would ruin the breed if allowed to have their way.

Mackenzie

Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 17 September 2019 - 15:09

V18  1165  Achilleus vom Kapellenberg 

Daniel Koller  Wernberg  A



by old shatterhand on 17 September 2019 - 15:09

Mackenzie, shake it easy before you get hear attack . Money ruined already the whole World, never mind German Shepherd breed. As long people are willing to pay few hundreds of thousands of $$$$ for a dog nothing will change. The only option We have here is to breed to the best, most sounded males available, not necessarily has to be VA dog. I already mentioned to which males I would like to breed, but if you disagree with me ,so let it be. Money spin the World around , and an average person like me can't change a damn thing. I have seen many SL dogs which are just pets, companion,never were shown,nor trained with very sound temperament. Unfortunately 90% or maybe even more my buyers want those dogs for these reasons. Unfortunately most of these dogs end up as couch potato ,and some could be shown, or train, but people are not interested in. They just want beautiful animal, friendly, outgoing and social where they can take him to any place they want, and not fear that the dog jump and harm someone.

Irina Kuznetsova

by Irina Kuznetsova on 17 September 2019 - 17:09

V19  1064  Yango aus Agrigento 

Hans-Dieter Wüst  Lorsch  D



Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 17 September 2019 - 17:09

Klossbruhe,
I agree with you completely as far as the liability issue, especially in the States. Long gone are the days when dogs could bite criminal suspects.
As far as the detection dogs you mentioned, sure, those are jobs the breed has done and is still doing and while they require a strength of nerve to function in the environments they have to work in, it is not the same as what is required of a patrol dog whose job involves looking for a suspect because they relish the fight that may come.

The X-Rays you mentioned of dogs jamming their necks on a bite are, I am sure real, it does happen, especially when you have a hard hitting dog, however, what does that mean? That perhaps show dogs should be selected for the job because anatomically they are better suited? There is this little temperament thing that they must also have in order to qualify sir.
Arthritis is part of living a life that perhaps demanded some risks to be taken...otherwise, I find your dissertation completely accurate and have nothing but respect for everything you stated.





 


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