Vocalization and self control (2013) - Page 4

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by apple on 14 August 2019 - 17:08

I let the dog see the dog to stimulate drive, then usually call the dog to heel with a service finish, then go to heeling in motion, where at some point, the toy is faded to being held behind the dog's outside ear. He doesn't see it, but knows it is there. If I have the dog to the point where the toy is out of his sight, when I reward, I give the release command and throw the toy to the side so as not to encourage forging.

by ValK on 14 August 2019 - 19:08

apple, earlier you call them phlegmatic. now they are patient.
in both cases you're wrong, albeit mainly indifference to surrounding, intrinsic to them, can create such impression for those,
who do not know this type.
pretty much this way (+ unfriendly attitude) my Ari was perceived by my relatives and others, who saw him after our arriving to Canada.
people just not used to this kind of dog's temperament and personality.
but that calm behavior dictated by their absolute selfconfidence and could be to some degree by independence from surrounding.
they do not starving for affection or attention, do not waste their breath on small things as long as there aren't threat or challenge
toward them or their master.
as i said earlier - this is one person dog and won't allow any kind of cocky gestures toward itself from anyone other than accepted
master, even if those others are well known to him.

by Centurian on 14 August 2019 - 19:08

Yes ...he knows it's there .... of course , for , he smells it !

So there is more than one way to skin a cat . Not is all correct and neither is everything incorrect. But If you let me share : " I don't care " - that is my message to my dog that is . I don't care if the tug you see or you don't see it , it is not an issue . I don't care . So I expect the dog to follow my direction irregardless.

Why does the dog forge because first comes the thought and then comes the action [ even for people] . That is to say . when I teach the dog to heel , even with a 12 week pup or an dult , I never ever ever ever ... give the dog a reason to want to forge . If the dog knows heel the movement or the postion , doesn't matter , the dog will not forge. If the dog does not ' think ' of forging but thinks about staying at or in heel - then it won't forge and it will stay at heel . So when I see a dog forge or hear that someone wants to prevent forging - that is because the dog will think or thought that it could forge and it actually does forge  because he found that he could..

Having explained that , therefore I don't  produce anything that may even be similar to the dog ,  that he can  leave the  heel.. Personally I would never ever ever put a toy beside a dog's head in teaching and  , even release him then quiclky [ immediately]  throw the toy that was once near his head . I never put him into a situation that he would ever Anticpate a Release and a throw , from an and of object that was near his head to chase near the heel position.  Rather I would release him from the heel , but after I walked several paces away from where I had heeled . After walking a bit with him ,  then take a toy out of my pocket to play tug or throw .. But I never ever have a toy near / assocaited with the exercise,  in that place and in close timing. Not saying what anyone should or should not do ... I liken this to people who give their children allowances after they clean their room . No , you clean your room because it is your responsibility , not because you anticpate or expect something. However cleaning your room and completing your responsibilbilty can bring future benefits in youre life. Do something because it is your responsibility . It is the dog's responsibility when cued to , and completing responsibilities fress him up to within a short moment play .

Freedom and benefits are earned. Resources to survive and enjoy life are earned and they not have to be gthere at every moment of our lives. You work , but at the exact end of you work do you get menoynin had. Most people do not. But we galdly work knowing that in a short period of time therafter , we do get our needs / our paycheck . Do you work seeing a dollar bill or it is next to your head , no we work realizing that we will* get* our pay and what we need.

So again , these gurus have to make a fad about reinforcement.. Huh .. do not people and dogs understand that ' in time ' they get what they want and need ? That is nto say away and after an exerices has been completed and over and done with . Our culture ..." instant gratification " , what about delayed gratification ? Do you not think a dog will be happy to work with you .. just to finish the task , so that , therafter [ i.e after being released and after the exercise has been completely ceased and behind you ] ] it will have fun and get what it wants ? Dogs , do they not have a " sense of timing " [ not time as in future /past , but timing ] ? I never ever heel a dog , release it , and as it steps out of heel throw a toy that was next to his head .... But to each their own... not everything is right nor wrong .. just Depends ...

by apple on 15 August 2019 - 10:08

I simply follow principles of operant learning. The reinforcer directly follows the correct behavior. In my mind, when you walk away after the dog has heeled and then wait and reinforce him, you are actually reinforcing the behavior he displayed just before reinforcing him with the toy. For me, the timing is critical and delayed gratification is reinforcing the last behavior displayed. But like you said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. It is not different than training a rat in a skinner box. I have done that before and when the reinforcer immediately follows the behavior, the rat quickly learns a complex chain of behaviors.

by Centurian on 15 August 2019 - 13:08

Apple
I was thiuking that someone was gpoing to respond in the same thought as you have. After I wrote my post I thought : someone is going to say , Centurian so many times you referenced reinforcement and also Centurian what you wrote violates learning theory . But what I described in essence does not violate learning theory .

Operant Conditioning : when using a clicker [ or our voice can also be the marker to the clicker marks , right down to the split second that part of the behavior or what behavior that you desire from the dog to perform and that it is getting reinforced for . The second role is that when a clicker is used it messages to the dog also that the reinfocement is immenent - that is to say is coming. That means the reinforcement does not have to be presented in an immediate split second or within a second to the dog. nor does it have to be ptesented within the confines of the exercise. that is to say that ity can be prtesented outyside the confines or=f the performance /exercise and a little time thereafter. A dog can perform ,we can communicate to the dog when a behavior begins and when it ends - at the end of that behavior we can mark by saying e.g " Good heel " then release the dog walk away from that heel and then play , a reinforcement for the dog having done well a few moments later , just as you would click , and a few moments afterwards treat.

Now when we click and treat , is the treat always in the sight of the dog , nor do we need to show or have the dog sense that the treat is in my hand or that I e venn have a grea ? Your word ' Good ' or the click will tell the dog that he did what you want. After intial teaching delayed reinforcement - I teach the dog sometimes it will have chance to have a treat, bite a tug , have reinforcemnt , but many many times that it will not. I do teach the dog to expect a reward , a reinforcement - the dog performs not seeing reinforcement however I condition the dog that Inwill feinforce if I want to , when I want to , where and why I want to . This works for me because I have taught the dog to perform with no expectation before the performance , within the performance , and immediately after the performance . I teach the dog tom perform anywhere , anyplace at anytime irregadless if I reinforce.

Another nition , I dog should do something not just because you said so , but that dog must jhave , or at least learn to Love ** that which it needs to do that which it must do , and that whcih you want it to do . The dog must learn to trust you to take your direction because it has learned that you put his interest before your own , in respects. [ actually what is asked is in both our and his interest ]. The dog must take joy , IMOP must want to do what you want it to do more, than you want it to . Bite work ... many of the GSs that I have had , they just loved to bite , they almost lived to bite....they loved to be near me , they loved the opportunity to walk near me [heel ] , to come to me , to bring something to me. People talk about ' working the dogs' .. and I say NOoooo. We do not work dogs for we ' work together with dogs ' . When my dogs love interacting WITH me then I*** become their reinforcement playing . The engagement , the interacting with me in an endeavor , that is what should be the transferred somewhere along the line in all this reimnforcement bit Whether a dog has a tug or no tug , should not matter to give a dog before , during or right after performing . IMOp .... Just like a pup , doesn't matter if I hold a treat right out to my left side.. I expect the dog in time to lok to me whether It see a treat , expectys a treat or not. And.. if anyone ever see me with muy dogs , their eyes are most of the time glued to me like radra. 8 dogs lined up at a soccer field I can walk anywhere , even 100 yards away and not one of them takes their eyes off me- No matter what . They will all hold their place and when I get back to them , thier reinforcement is that I came back to them , they aren't looking for a treat.

If I ask a dog to heel , I don't care if it is front of Walmart , I expect the dog to perfectly heel the same as it does , gladly , willingly , precisely . ATTITUDE . Dog training and working dogs is about teaching and ATTITUDE. If I have to reward or constantly / variable reinforce [ if I do not teach further than teaching variable reinforcement ] then IMOp the dog has the wrong attitude and I have the wrong relationship [ my dog is unto itself ] .

So at 8 , 10 weeks old . This is how I condition my pups . I start with attention - they look at me I click treat. I do that a few repitions . Now I hold the treat out to my left. The pup looks at the trerat , I say wrong , then when the pup looks to me I click /treat. Soon enough I will hold the treat put and the pup doesn't even bother to look at it. What I am saying is that the pup learns : it does not matter if you see or do not see the reinforcement. What matters is that you offer the behavior that I want and / or later you perform the beahvior that I want when told to / cued, reward or no reward , reinforcement or no reinforcement. The heel : instad of heel as the dog matures , substitite heel for attention . That is to say at a point the dog learns to heel , witout a reward and without an imminent reinforcement. Because I did the same with heeling , the reward ,reinforcement in concept as I did with 'attention' - reward [ immediate reinforcement ] never ever becomes an issue. Many times after the learning I do not even reinforce. So I do not build the expectation nin the dog frommthe behining to EXPECT a immedeiate reinforcement and/ or a delayed reinforcement.

Fot whatever this long post is worth or not worth .. my thoughts I have shared for everyone to read of they choosed to. You would never see me put a toy next to dog not to have it forge...

by apple on 15 August 2019 - 14:08

In operant learning, the principle of positive reinforcement has two parts. In a given situation, an organism does something that is followed immediately by a certain consequence, then that organism is more likely to do the same thing again when it next encounters a similar situation. One of the factors that effects positive reinforcement is immediacy. For maximum effectiveness, a reinforcer should be given immediately after the desired response. A positive reinforce strengthens any response that it immediately follows. This is operant learning 101. There is delayed reinforcement. You see it all the time. But delayed reinforcement is generally much less effective than immediate reinforcement. Instructions is another factor that effects positive reinforcement. The organism/dog works even when he doesn't have an understanding (instruction) of why he was reinforced, which is the case with dogs. With people, they can indicate through speech an understanding of why they were reinforced.
The toy behind the dog's head is simply a way of fading or weaning the dog from the conditioned reinforcer to natural reinforcers, such as praise, a desire to please his handler, enjoyment of the work, etc. This is the goal of any training.
I never said I put the toy behind the dog's head to prevent forging. I said I release the toy being held behind the head to the side so the dog doesn't develop the habit of running forward to win the toy which is an approximation of forging. Why potentially create problems. When I am casually walking my dog, I really don't care how he walks and want to clearly differentiate that focused heeling is for competition only. I might walk with the dog on my right side instead of the left as I would in trial, but my current dog walks in front and center of me at the end of the leash.

by Centurian on 15 August 2019 - 15:08

Apple .... No ... that is not correct ......

Classical Conditioning is : Stimuus -Response - Reward meaning Immediate reinforcement.
Operant and Intsrumental Conditioing [ in essence two kinds exist ] is not based on Immediate Reinforcement. To be specific : Immediate reinforcment means just as what it says, that reinforcement is within about 1 second of the response in order for the dog to make an association. By defintion then Operant & Instrumental are different. That is to say , yes we reinforce , but the dog learns that the clicker means ' that a reinforcemnt is forth coming". That reinforcement does not have to be within 1 second of the response. dogs do learn nthat if they 'wait ' a moment thereafter that they get reinforcement. I side track and explain :

Teaching a dog to sit . In that teaching when the dog sits upon cue we click and treat. So ythe dog gets gthat right. Now move away from the dog , as the dog sits and remains sitting I click /great and then I walk back to the dog . That means when I am away from the dog , it takes me time to come back to the dog then** the dog gets it's reinforcement. That is to say the dog has learned to be patient for the ' reinforcement is imminent / forth coming. It just has to wait until I get there . I can do the same with the dog sitting and extending the time. The dog can sit for 20 seconds , I cklick ... and then I can wait before I start to step back to that dog , it will wait for me to return because it has learned that reinforcement is imminent. That is , the dog learns to wait for things to come ..... I am changing at this point the expectations of the dog. variable scheduling : so with operant conditioning we move to variable schedules. But what I am saying is a little bit more ... do not condition the dog to such a degree that the dog always be looking for reinforcement. There has to be a point where what the dog does/ performs and you , yourself, becomes reinforcing. Something interesting happens with reinforcers ... If you use them to often as opposed to yourself , even if you moved to a variable reinforcement , if you do not continue the reinforcement , even variable , you will see how demotivated many dogs become ! howevber , if you become the motivator or the joy of the dog being able , that is I give permissioon for my dogs to do things , then that in and of itself is a maintained reinforcer that always is with the dog.

To eiterate : when I teach apup attention , I don't care if a treat is in sight or not, the treat is an ninstrument that bI use to teach them that paying attention to me is in their best interest and that does not necessiateseeing treat , or getting a treat. And if you understand what I am saying .. even with a treat dangling to my left , I am conditioning " nothing matters but to llok towards me [ not just physically but mentally ] . The initial reinforcement may teach the pup that it is in their intertest to look at me , but later by looking at me they learn that there is an interaction with me, which becomes the reinforcer . That is to say for all reinforcers , once we have paired ourselves with them correctly , and we become a reinforcer and what they do becomes reinforcing as well , you phase out other
things.

Therfore , maybe one beeter understands : Heel , I am allowing my dog to heel and be in my body space. [ just a s a dog allows you into his body space , yes ] Dog heels without a toy in sight .. doesn't matter if I have a toy or not . Heel - the dog should love to heel - that being reinforcing to the dog . Then the heel stops. I take the reponsibility away from the dog , yes call it a release from the cue/request if you will . We move a long then after the performance the and play tug. So even if the dog realizes that if it heels... then sometimes it gets to play tug... that is after and outside of the heeling and not immediately connected with the heel . I expect the dog to heel with or without playing tug nor does the dog expect to get something . It has been so conditioned to heel , that getting something doesn't matter. Just the way a pup learns to look at me and to eventually learn that looking at me does not mean getting a treat or a toy but rather looking at me brings something else.. If we make reinforcements important to the dog more than ourselves , then that is what you get , a dog that prefers reinforcements seperate and apart of ourselves.

Apple operant contion does not mean a dog gets an immediate reawrd. Thatn is classical conditioning. BTW , operant and instrumetal conditioning means that either the hadler is the operator , or the dog is the operator. One person operates, works the other. The meaning is that there is an underlying realiution ship between the two going from one to the other , or the other to the one i.e Relationship .. And each operate can learn to be patient . classical conditioning- a machine can drop a reward .... so there is a bigggg difference

Teaching aspects of self control that need to be taught ....also relates to how you teach a dog .

3 years ago I did a BH OB routine with my GS. I never ever ever did the Sh1 heel pattern with , not once did I ever do it or practice it . That day he did hisSch 1 heel patten and he did every step , every turn , every stop , perfectly . I never used rewards training , I did reinforcement training with the end reinforcer being myself . In the teaching : He never had / developed a reason to forge, / lag , be out of postion , to crowd, he did not heel looking for a treat or a tug . He heeled because that was what he loved to do , and because he loved to heel with me. Self discipline and self control ... when you teach a dog to int eract with you , like a dance , my point is that self control comes easier to the dog. Same way a pup can control itself from being tempted to look at a treat to your left when you want it to be looking at you ... For whatever it is worth .. or not ...

by Centurian on 15 August 2019 - 15:08

Apple .... No ... that is not correct ......

Classical Conditioning is : Stimuus -Response - Reward meaning Immediate reinforcement.
Operant and Intsrumental Conditioing [ in essence two kinds exist ] is not based on Immediate Reinforcement. To be specific : Immediate reinforcment means just as what it says, that reinforcement is within about 1 second of the response in order for the dog to make an association. By defintion then Operant & Instrumental are different. That is to say , yes we reinforce , but the dog learns that the clicker means ' that a reinforcemnt is forth coming". That reinforcement does not have to be within 1 second of the response. dogs do learn nthat if they 'wait ' a moment thereafter that they get reinforcement. I side track and explain :

Teaching a dog to sit . In that teaching when the dog sits upon cue we click and treat. So ythe dog gets gthat right. Now move away from the dog , as the dog sits and remains sitting I click /great and then I walk back to the dog . That means when I am away from the dog , it takes me time to come back to the dog then** the dog gets it's reinforcement. That is to say the dog has learned to be patient for the ' reinforcement is imminent / forth coming. It just has to wait until I get there . I can do the same with the dog sitting and extending the time. The dog can sit for 20 seconds , I cklick ... and then I can wait before I start to step back to that dog , it will wait for me to return because it has learned that reinforcement is imminent. That is , the dog learns to wait for things to come ..... I am changing at this point the expectations of the dog. variable scheduling : so with operant conditioning we move to variable schedules. But what I am saying is a little bit more ... do not condition the dog to such a degree that the dog always be looking for reinforcement. There has to be a point where what the dog does/ performs and you , yourself, becomes reinforcing. Something interesting happens with reinforcers ... If you use them to often as opposed to yourself , even if you moved to a variable reinforcement , if you do not continue the reinforcement , even variable , you will see how demotivated many dogs become ! howevber , if you become the motivator or the joy of the dog being able , that is I give permissioon for my dogs to do things , then that in and of itself is a maintained reinforcer that always is with the dog.

To eiterate : when I teach apup attention , I don't care if a treat is in sight or not, the treat is an ninstrument that bI use to teach them that paying attention to me is in their best interest and that does not necessiateseeing treat , or getting a treat. And if you understand what I am saying .. even with a treat dangling to my left , I am conditioning " nothing matters but to llok towards me [ not just physically but mentally ] . The initial reinforcement may teach the pup that it is in their intertest to look at me , but later by looking at me they learn that there is an interaction with me, which becomes the reinforcer . That is to say for all reinforcers , once we have paired ourselves with them correctly , and we become a reinforcer and what they do becomes reinforcing as well , you phase out other
things.

Therfore , maybe one beeter understands : Heel , I am allowing my dog to heel and be in my body space. [ just a s a dog allows you into his body space , yes ] Dog heels without a toy in sight .. doesn't matter if I have a toy or not . Heel - the dog should love to heel - that being reinforcing to the dog . Then the heel stops. I take the reponsibility away from the dog , yes call it a release from the cue/request if you will . We move a long then after the performance the and play tug. So even if the dog realizes that if it heels... then sometimes it gets to play tug... that is after and outside of the heeling and not immediately connected with the heel . I expect the dog to heel with or without playing tug nor does the dog expect to get something . It has been so conditioned to heel , that getting something doesn't matter. Just the way a pup learns to look at me and to eventually learn that looking at me does not mean getting a treat or a toy but rather looking at me brings something else.. If we make reinforcements important to the dog more than ourselves , then that is what you get , a dog that prefers reinforcements seperate and apart of ourselves.

Apple operant contion does not mean a dog gets an immediate reawrd. Thatn is classical conditioning. BTW , operant and instrumetal conditioning means that either the hadler is the operator , or the dog is the operator. One person operates, works the other. The meaning is that there is an underlying realiution ship between the two going from one to the other , or the other to the one i.e Relationship .. And each operate can learn to be patient . classical conditioning- a machine can drop a reward .... so there is a bigggg difference

Teaching aspects of self control that need to be taught ....also relates to how you teach a dog .

3 years ago I did a BH OB routine with my GS. I never ever ever did the Sh1 heel pattern with , not once did I ever do it or practice it . That day he did hisSch 1 heel patten and he did every step , every turn , every stop , perfectly . I never used rewards training , I did reinforcement training with the end reinforcer being myself . In the teaching : He never had / developed a reason to forge, / lag , be out of postion , to crowd, he did not heel looking for a treat or a tug . He heeled because that was what he loved to do , and because he loved to heel with me. Self discipline and self control ... when you teach a dog to int eract with you , like a dance , my point is that self control comes easier to the dog. Same way a pup can control itself from being tempted to look at a treat to your left when you want it to be looking at you ... For whatever it is worth .. or not ...

by apple on 15 August 2019 - 16:08

With your sitting example, you are simply referring to intermittent reinforcement. When initially teaching a behavior, you use continuous and immediate reinforcement. As the dog learns the behavior, the reinforcer can be delayed which is a fixed-duration schedule. If you tell the dog to sit and he sits for ten continuous seconds, and is then reinforced, the schedule is called a fixed duration 10 second schedule. It is still operant learning. There are variable-interval schedules where the time before reinforcement becomes available changes unpredictably instead of being constant. There are variable-duration schedules, where the time before the reinforcer is given varies in duration. The frequency of reinforcement, when teaching a new behavior should be high enough (continuous) to maintain the desired behavior, and then should be decreased gradually until the final desired amount of behavior per reinforcement is being maintained or an unconditioned, natural reinforcer will maintain the behavior. That all falls under operant learning principles.

by Centurian on 15 August 2019 - 18:08

Apple what you write is true .. But I am adding another slight difference. The first being that tgrough operant conditioning you take the place of any reinforcer and later the dog performs of it's own will without the need for reinforcing .There is a difference between you having to 'tell ' a dog what to do and a dog wanting to do of it's own accord because that in and of itself is what is imprtant to the dog. I tried to expalin that you can staert out using reinforcers, then translate that to you being the reinforcer. But at what point does the dog do something . willingly , gladly , without any other thought? When my dog comes to me ... it is bacuse I allow the dog to come to me. If I heel the dog it is because I allow the dog to heel with me. If I sit a dog it is because it wants to sit and if I leave it wants to wait for me to come back [ i.e. a sit/stay ] . I am not rewarding the dog , at this poiint not reinforcing the dog .. I am allowing , giving permission to the dog to perform. Having said that, if I allow the dog to perform , then why would I need to reward or reinforce the dog for something that it alreading wants and is willing to do ? So yes , I use operant condtioning initially because all teaching is either based on classical or operant conditioning. But my end point : it doesn't matter to the dog about being reinforced,he doesn't have the expectation even randomly to be reinforced. The dog has learned what I wanted it to such that the dog wants to do something more than I want it to ... The result , the dog works with and for me - that is my point . Just like a pup that started out looking at me .. but eventually , always in the end , the pup [ and as an adult ] looks to me without expectation or reward / reinforcement, simply because it wants to . That is the differntial that I am making.

Side note : do you not think dogs do not figure out that they are being operantly conditioned ? Yes they do ..... So random reinforcemnt , delayed reinforcement.. they still on that note work for reinforcement. But a dog learning that something is in it's best interest and then decides that it wants to do it , will do , just waits to do it .. then why would I have the need for reinforcing something the dog already wants to do ?

I have a dog that is 7 years old . Someone came to see him . I haven't heeled him formally for a year. I showed this person who I am helping train her GS , how he heels. I have not reinforced him at all . I did a heel , off leash/no collar , better yet I called him he came to me right in front and sat [ BTW haven't done a recall within a year with him either ], then I heeled him and he never missed a beat . Now he did not do that loooking for reinforcement or a reward .such as biting the tug or getting a cookie. He did it because he wanted to - , as I wrote , I just allowed him ...

  A dog biting a sleeve , when a dog bites a sleeve after foundation and having learned ... at a certain point do we find the need to have to reinforce that behavior from the dog . Don't  most dogs enjp\oy the bite work and probalby desrie to btie more than you want then to ? The " out " .. ok maybe in the teaching phase  we  sometimes give as reinforcement of the dog outing ,  another bite [ operant condition ],  ? Does not the dog take your cue/direction without the thought of getting a reward or another bite /reinforcement at some point ? Does  not the dog out from the bite without the need for reinforcement , but merely because it is his responsibility to out  ? Do we have the need to in any way , reinforce that outing thereafter he has learned ' the out ' ? . No we do not.  So if we understand this about a bite and an out .... then why do think we have to reinforce threafter for the dog in other repsects ? The dog looks for your direcction and to you for these , why is it so hard to understand this in other behaviors / performances ? Why the need to hold a tug near a dog . or the dog have epectation of getrting a tug , for heeling ? Take away all the reasons that dog would forge ,or never let the dog think of forging, and it will not forge.... 



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