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by ValK on 13 June 2019 - 06:06

duke, i believe centurian is right. today way too big difference between this two types and too small odds for predictable persistent outcome from such mix.
take a look at body constitution alone. it's possible that some specimens could have very good mentality for work but what a point in this if they not able to perform that work due to being for many generations crippled physically.

Centurian
I have not followed DDR or Czech breeding through the last 10 -15 years

well, if so, then you did spared yourself from frustration. trend is very disappointing. if SL folk did cripple GSD physically, WL folks today work very hard to produce mentally crippled dogs. 
also notable trend toward skinny, malinoishly lightweight build with hyper hysterical temperament.
i guess it's about the time for attempt to save GSD breed from sport enthusiasts :(

by apple on 13 June 2019 - 11:06

Valk,
There are WL breeders that are not producing "mentally crippled, skinny, malinoishy lightweight build with hyper hysterical temperament." My male GSD is just under 17 months old. He is out of West German, Czech, and Slovak lines, some of which go back to the better older DDR dogs such as Lord and Blacky vom Gleisdreick, Jeff vom Flemings-Sand, Ingo von Rudigen and others and there is some back massing of these dogs. He is about 26" at the withers and weighs just under 110 pounds. He is very fast and agile and moves very well. He is not hyperhysterical, but I can get his level of frustration very high resulting in very high drive. He has a nice defensive edge, but does not have an overly low threshold for defense. He bites hard and full. He has a lot of maturing to do, but is making very nice progress. I'm not saying these dogs are dime a dozen. I had a lot of help finding this breeding including help from some who discuss things here. I will grant you that the breeder does not breed for sport dogs per se, but a more balanced dog that is capable of work and sport. But there are some top sport dogs close up in his pedigree as well, including Yoschy von der Dollenwiese (BSP & V-LGA), Olix von Karthago (BSP), Xino von Roy's Hoeve (BSP), Hoky Va-PE (WUSV), Tyson von der Schiffslache (3XBSP), Honzal Opal (WUSV), and Olex de Valsory (4XBSP and 3X LGA) to name a few.


by duke1965 on 13 June 2019 - 15:06

Valk, you write it yourself, the sport lines are no guarantee for policematerial anymore as well

by Gustav on 13 June 2019 - 15:06

Centurian, if you read my post, I think it’s says in reference to Scandinavian breeders, after 1990 the use of SL was pretty nonexistent ( substantially reduced) and they infused Czech and DDR blood, ( which now the Czech dog is Czech/West mix) to their working lines. So I
AM not trying to justify SL vs WL mixes unless there was a three gen follow up to the initial breeding that didn’t involve SL. Also, just for the record, I am not one of those that believes the Current SL have correct structure in the first place. But that is a conversation for another time.

i think the two today are pretty much separate dogs not only phenotypically, but also genetically.

by Centurian on 13 June 2019 - 17:06

Ok Gustav ...
I then mis interpreted and I was confused regarding what you were trying to say or make a case for . I thought that you were trying say and give evidence that a SL X WL will be successful in current day .
emoryg

by emoryg on 13 June 2019 - 19:06

I would guess that less than one in ten patrol dogs task with apprehending the criminal have show lines in the 1st or 2nd generation.   It was more common in the 80s, 90s and 2000.   I have no knowledge of the dogs before that other than what I have been told or read.  I stopped testing the German Flagships around early 2000.  It was too much of a waste of time.  I did have some success with testing some of the showlines mixes, most of the dogs were showlines on the mother side and anchored in the pedigree with some working lines.   Only one dog was ever selected for police work, but several held on through most of the testing before falling to the pressure, with a few making it farther than some working lines.  The one dog who did have what was needed was very showy on the top side and had show on the mother side, but she was anchored on good dogs like Car Pod, Grand Ritterberg and Cesar Rangetal.   Sometimes the stars do line up, just not on a consistent enough basis.   The last show line that I saw who I thought could occasionally sire a decent police dog was through the Zamb Wineraru line.  I worked and observed several offspring from this line and was surprised with the confidence of some of these dogs.  Zamb’s mother was anchored with some nice dogs such as Frei Gugge, Muts and Sirk BS. 

When the German SL people started breeding the color of their flag - red, black and yellow (hence the name, flagships) the dogs seemed to start dropping the confidence and any aggression they once had.  They were still quick to posture once recognizing the threat, but had nothing to sustain them as the pressure mounted.  Avoidance behavior was displayed very early on.  With that in mind, some of the working lines started displaying odd behaviors when under the same pressure.  Instead of posturing to counter the threat, some dogs would start acting overly friendly and submissive, almost like puppies.  They appeared to counter the threat with kindness, displaying no signs of overt aggression.  This is called rolling (rolling over).  This is submission to a threat and not avoidance to it.  This was very troubling to witnesss. 

These are my observations based upon my own experience and exposure.  I do know that over the years I have seen some SL doing very good nosework and were an assett to the law enforcement communities 

Many dogs, not just SL lack total self confidence.  Courage is not to be confused with confidence.  I did not need a courageous police dog, I needed a police dog who had total confidence in himself.  This is one of my biggest concern with the breed.   


by Juno on 13 June 2019 - 20:06

Excellent post Emoryg regarding confidence vs courage. I think I know what you mean and agree 100%. A confident dog is calm when confronted with something he is not familiar with but bold and curious enough to bowl right through it. Nothing really phases him and threshold of defense is on the high side and won’t get triggered till really threatened and that’s when the courage part kicks in. Maybe I missed what you meant completely but that’s my interpretation of confidence vs courage.

by Centurian on 13 June 2019 - 20:06

emoryg ,
I enjoyed reading your post . My friend, back in that time , aided in the breeding and showing of the Winerau Lines . And the SL GS back then , at least the one that I had around that time frame , would take no back seat to any LE GS . But.. times I would say , definately have changed.

Yes emoryg ... courage and confidence are two entirely different factors. They can go hand in hand but they are not the same. Either a dog has the courage or it does not.. But confidence if not present in a dog can be fostered.

Once more , nice commentary ...

by ValK on 14 June 2019 - 02:06

emoryg good observation, well put in words.
particularly about present days WL breeding trend. my mentor back in 70's did have short description for such type of dog's mentality - "ewiger welpen" (never maturing "eternal puppy").
the dog, i posted video in another thread, albeit appearing fully grown and mature in his physical appearance, does display exactly such immature puppy's playful character. but guess what... that's precise the type of dog's mentality, adored by mass consumers, segment of market where money lays.
in post above, apple said his dog did come from serious WL breeding program. have being 17 month old "He has a lot of maturing to do, but is making very nice progress".
well, at 18~19 month age dogs in border service did show enough maturity to be certified and deployed for patrol duty in full capacity.
and believe me, they were mature at that age and not much changes did occurred after that point in their character, behavior and attitude.

by apple on 14 June 2019 - 11:06

There is a difference in saying a dog has a lot of maturing to do and saying a dog is immature. A dog at 24 months will be significantly more mature than at 17 months. I also think my dog, had I trained for police certification, would be able to pass. To say a dog doesn't change that much after 18-19 months is misguided thinking. The general consensus is that a GSD is mentally mature at 2-3 years of age, mostly closer to 3.  Plus, based on the video you showed with the soldier agitating the dogs while they were eating and the time you were involved with border patrol dogs, training has come a long way, along with understanding canine behavior. The DDR was a communist country and I haven't seen anything that produced a good result under communism. I'm willing to bet there was a good deal of falsifying things with some of the DDR dogs. My understanding is that they didn't have to be assigned a tattoo number until they were six months old, resulting in hip x-rays easily being substituted for other dogs and creating false registration papers that don't show the true parent or parents. While there were some very good DDR dogs, I think they are hyped and often valued more for having big heads, strong bone and pigment, and for those who like dominant dogs, some could be very rank dogs. My understanding is that the training was often poor using very heavy handed approaches in obedience. It is almost a macho thing or maybe the DDR soldiers were taking out their frustration on their dogs because they were trapped in an impoverished communist country.  In other words, they were projecting how they were under the thumb of the government onto their dogs.  But also, most training in the old days relied on strictly compulsion until inductive approaches began to be used.



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