Opinions on a 3-3 line breeding to Tyson vom Kottersbusch - Page 1

Pedigree Database


by Laker on 20 May 2019 - 23:05

Ok, I'm asking for opinions on a 3-3 line breeding with Tyson vom Kottersbusch? He is and always has been one of my favorite German Shepherds . I am lucky enough to have 2 sons and 2 grandsons..


by LOVE THY SHEPHERD on 21 May 2019 - 01:05

I have a very nice Tyson grandson.


by alexnds05 on 21 May 2019 - 03:05

a 3-3 is a breeding of first cousins.


by Hundmutter on 21 May 2019 - 07:05

@alexands05 answered the question in their excellent post on the other thred, replying to someone asking "What % inbreeding coefficient should be the line ?".

The lovely Tyson, however, is not the only 'dog in the fight' - whatever his good points, or any failings he may have, they are still only a part of the genetic picture you create when you mate dogs. Don't forget the bitch you use brings '50%' to the game, and her other relatives, insofar as Tyson is not among them, bring influence to the pot also.

You sound to be in an unusually fortunate position, owning more dogs of the line; if you see enough of what you are trying to produce in your next generation with the dogs you have already, maybe it is worth linebreeding so close. But be aware that it is still risky. The 'wrong' genes get doubled up on all too easily and you can end up with a mediocre litter at best, and, at worst, 'fix' something in health- or temperament-wise etc that you really did not want. Seen smaller breeders do this all the time ! It's vitally important that the pair you use are as good and healthy specimens as you can find, before you consider which dog is the main ancestor.

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 21 May 2019 - 18:05

I did it with his sire love it

by hexe on 21 May 2019 - 21:05

Hundmutter, if the OP would be doing a 3-3 linebreeding on Tyson, the bitch will have him as one of her grandsires as well...otherwise, the pairing of her with one of his grandsons wouldn't be 3-3 on Tyson.


by Hundmutter on 22 May 2019 - 07:05

Yes Hexe I get that, I wasn't excluding/ignoring Tyson or the consequent other repeats from the dam's pedigree, just pointing out there are some OTHER dogs in her background to be taken into consideration, too. Specifically, what's in the maternal grand-dam's background.

by Centurian on 22 May 2019 - 13:05

Again .. I am very very very reluctant to post .. actually I try not to . Recently I have seen PDB threads that are not helping people that want to better themselves or their GS ! My consceinece therefore promotes my writing . Personally, I wish the PDB was what it once used to be ...

Anyway : the biggest detriment to the GS over the past several decades and presently , is perdicated on the very very very bad breeding practices ... and that goes right to the top of the SV that has allowed the GS beed to be what it is today .

3-3 involving Tyson : First I do not crtitize this . BUT ... the whole premise of what the OP has written is off . The thinikng is way way off in certain** respects . Simply because that is all the general reader of this thread knows - it is a 3-3 line breeding . The biggest detriment to the GS dog today are the breeders ! Anyone .. anyone that has been involverd with the GS as long as I have will unequivocably tell you that the majority , not every single breeder , but the majority , has no insight , no short term or long term breeding plan . A breeding goal is different than a breeding plan . That is what is most need for the breed today - those that have a goal and a plan to avhieve that goal.

OP - you say that he is a favorite of yours ... That does not in and of itself , make a studs or dams candidtates for a breeding . Also .. who is the dam ? What I should be reading is : these are the attributes externally and internally [ genotype and phonotype ]'type' that you are aiming for ? Shown pictures and videos for those that are not able to see these GS would give some information to people to repsond about . Are you looking for a better top line ? a better angulation ?, a better croup ? correcting height? . How do these dogs move ?? Movement is going to tell you about what you need or don't need to improve with your structure . BTW good breeders understand generations about thier dogs and that binforamtion is not so readily available on the internet. SAlso ,,, I want to know , not hwatbI know about these dogs but what bI don't know about them , what people domnot tell me about these dogs[ and many times before bad info is learned about dogs it is to late anyway ] . Are you thinking about in the internal traits that will affect performance : the affinity of the dog to work with the handler , the stress levels , the kind and types of aggression . For example , if you wanted to preserve herding instincts .. these are qualities that become very very important. You do not give enough information for people to adequately comment on a 3-3 line breeding. There are some of the " KINDS OF QUESTIONS " if the breeder or OP does not know they should be asking in their own mind or someone elses . not simply is this 3-3 breeding good ...

So a 3-3 line breeding .. what is it about the dogs , that makes you want to line bred these two specific GS ? In contemplating that question , remember two factors : If you try to intensify the good /better traits , you will also intensify those detrimental / very bad traits within the breeding . In addition , when we try to improve or gain something , we also may very well lose or make something else less when we consider atributes and traits.

Your Plan : What I have found is that many GS breeders do not know how to breed. Just saying a 3-3 breeding doesn't cut it . I have no problem with people trying to learn , every breeder starts out with their first breeding at some time , but there is ' a way ' for " Breeding ". A breeder has to really know what they are doing .. you don't just rely on pedigrees or tiltes or simply rely on this or that . And you have to understand what you want to be passed on from "one generation to the next " . Yes I wrote understanding and I implied several generations. : I once came across some people that wanted to breed GSs . They thought they had a goal .. I wrote 'they thought' .. Years ago everybody was in a tizzy about oversized GS getting VA , high merits and so on . And after years and decades of dire neglect to heeding to the standards of height , the SV starts to crack down on oversize GS . This person in her group wanted to brred her large male to a smaller female . She concluded that this will correct the over sized height . Now .... I had to teach her genetics.. and teach her how to breed .. I explained to her " No , this is not the way to go about correcting for height . One does not simply take a big GS andmate it with a small GS to correct the size problem . You correct a size problem through G1 , G2 , G2 generations of breeding the complimentary males and females. Selecting I said .. " SELECTING" the Mates to what you have for a few generations neds to be done to correct most problems and or arrive at what you want in your dogs. . We do not simply stick a big dog with a small dog and get the in between dog ". This is why we are called BREEDERS s not simply a breeder. Becaue in truth , a breeding is or should be a rpoduct of or a step of breeding over generations .

So to the OP .. I am not criticizing you . Realize that I am trying to help you ... don't just think : 3-3 breeding on a dog that you are fond of ... And for you so called professional breeders, from what I have seen through the years ..take a lesson- you folks realy realy really need to develp the ability to have vision and clean up you breeding practices much more so than someone who came on this site who asks for help . I admire the OP becuase the/she is at least humble and truthful enough to ask for help .. My point is that you need to widen your vision and master exactly what you are doing by a 3-3 breeding.

Good luck and I am sincerely wishing you the best OP ...


by MercurynBella on 04 June 2019 - 10:06

Fantastic response Centurion, thank you for taking the time to provide so much information and education. I very rarely post here but happened upon this post and absolutely love what u have said as I firmly believe its critical to our breed that we focus on learning to become BREEDERS and not just breeders. Absolutely wonderfully informative post ... Thankyou Laker for opening up the discussion and good luck on ur decision.


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