Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 3

you mention that you did not have these things in the east block...what you you use to train a civil dog?

Jesse, we did use heavy padded suit, similar to ones for inmates of russian gulag in Siberia but somewhat improved by with pieces of plywood from inside on legs and hands areas. it was clumsy but served purpose.
that what i refer as "heavy dressed decoy".

Obviously you can‘t allow a real bite....

Jesse, to some age of pup, that's exactly what you do - allow him to bite flesh. starting from play, you begin to increase pressure and roughness, bringing the pup into full fight mood.
dog's civility isn't standalone trait. it's comes in pack with another traits like willingness to be involved and stubbornness to stay in fight, threshold,  level and form of reaction and response, boldness, pain tolerance, time to switch from stressed condition to calm. you can figure out predisposition of pup to become civil dog before they change their teeth.
such things you cannot teach the dog. this should be in there already from day, the pup was born. if it there, it will shows up immediately.

when dealing with youngster or adult dog, sure no one would be willing to check dog's civiliness on own skin. there need to be practical experience and knowledge of dogs.
during interaction you just feel the dog is playing or has intention to hurt you badly.
handler aggressiveness isn't much civility of dog but nerves/temperament flaw. dog, who normally is shy, in some circumstances can turn to be violent against his handler. does that mean dog is civil?
every dog can bite. not many of today's dogs will do it on goodwill, without being cornered.

Agree with most on here, especially some points Rik and Duke made.
Do you know how many dogs are washed out by sport people that are then sold as green dogs ? Whether the dog has previous sport training or not, the dog should be properly trained and tested prior to going on duty. Do you know how many videos there are of dogs not cutting it, that have no sport training?
Genetics, training and testing

Jesse - every knowledgeable tester/trainer has their own methodology to test potential dogs. People like Gustav and Duke do it all the time, and I believe they are very astute at assessing a dog's drives and potential. It takes a 'knack' to be able to read a dog, and some people just cannot ever 'get it', whereas others have it intrinsically.

I will tell you about one of the dogs that I tested/assessed for the K9 unit that I decoyed for. This dog was bought from a broker as a 'green', 16 mos (IIRC) old GSD from Holland. After a little while with the new handler, just hanging-out and settling in to life in the new place, I tested this dog to see what drives we had to work with. This was the first time that I saw the dog. I had the handler put the dog on the pole, with a 6' leash, and just stand beside the dog, not saying anything but just 'being there'. I approached from a spot where the dog could not see me, and slowly 'stalked' the dog, using strong eye contact and posturing (I had to really 'ham it up' as I am just slightly over 5', lol) to elicit a 'fight or flight' response, however small. The dog just watched me approach, at the end of his leash, and when he barked I then fled as if I was scared, going back to my hiding spot where I had stashed a sleeve. The dog did not 'spazz out', but just resumed sniffing the ground and seemed unfazed by what he had seen. Then I approached the dog again, this time with the sleeve on, but angling my body so that the sleeve was on the other side of my body to him. Now it was 'on' as this dog knew about the sleeve and he started lunging at the end of the leash, and barking. When he barked, I did some light prey movements (not too much as dog didn't need it). After eliciting strong barking, I came in and gave the dog a bite on the sleeve, then I 'slipped' the sleeve and retreated a step or two to see what the dog would do. Well, this dog totally disregarded me, and focused totally on the sleeve on the ground, making prey of it. I approached the dog, and he just intensified his attack on the sleeve on the ground, so I then went towards the handler and shoved the handler hard enough to make him take a few recovering steps, all the while keeping the dog in sight to see dog's reaction. Dog didn't care, and just kept on with the sleeve, so then I went behind dog and grabbed the base of his tail, lifting his back legs off the ground. Dog still kept on his attack on the sleeve. So then I went back to my hiding place and grabbed another sleeve, and came at dog with prey movement, and re realized that this was another opportunity to bite a moving sleeve so he left the one on the ground and came at me for the bite. I gave him a few misses, then a bite after strong barking, and put some fight into the sleeve to see what level of fight the dog had. I then said to the K9 guys that this dog needs work on re-focusing to target the man and not the sleeve, and that it would take some time & working sessions to see if the dog could be 're-habilitated' to focus on the decoy and disregard equipment, but that the dog had oodles of fight drive so we could use that to our advantage. They gave the dog a chance to see if he could be turned into a man-fighting dog, and I am pleased to say that after a couple of sessions with multiple sleeves (drop one, get other), sleeve/hidden sleeve and muzzle scenarios, that dog realized that the fun stuff - the fight with the man - was much better than the inanimate sleeve on the ground. That dog was a beast when fighting, and very powerful - he 'got off' on his engagement/fight with the man. This is just one example of how a dog, with a 'sport' background, could be trained to re-focus on the man and disregard equipment. It is also an example of how a person can assess a dog by working/testing it and being able to gauge what drives/tools the dog has. Not saying that I am any 'expert' at assessing dogs, but I believe (and so did head of the K9 unit) that I am not a terrible judge of dogs, FWIW.

Hope this helps you to understand how a 'green' dog could be tested.

Koots, no offence but...
at first you intentionally encourage the dog's toughness and boldness by showing your weakness and after that did start to test his toughness and boldness?
and after training, you absolutely sure that that dog, after get painful kick to his head or stomach, will remain in fight just because training have showed to him - fight with weak human brings more fun than fight with toy?

Rick:I don't know anything, but could that dog not be the result of poor choice, poor training, poor dog for LE dog to start with? there is also a video out there of a LE dog loosed on a running suspect and the dog is running down the road playing with the criminal. I'm pretty sure serious/experienced LE trainers can spot the fake dogs and weed them out. if a dog doesen't do it's job, it's somebody's fault at the end of the day. as always curious, Rik

 Hans(Prager):

the problem with your assumption is that the problem is not obvious until the dog is on the street for THE 1st time. That is when such behavior occursfor the 1st time.

Such behavior, where the dog redirects from a man to the sleeve ( or any other equipment ), can also occur at any time when the stress overrides and penetrates the training which like a blanket covered the dog's desire to go after the sleeve - his prey/booty - rather than after the man. This can also happen as a matter of convenience. I can almost hear the dog to ask: "Why to fight with the man when I can get what I fight for since it is laying here on the ground( the sleeve)?"

Remember channeling from prey to defense is training where the dog is prey biting the sleeve and then when the sleeve is dropped between the dog and the decoy who is trying to steal the sleeve/booty(in prey drive) the dog is redirecting his attention onto the decoy who is trying to steal this object of the dog's prey desire. Thus this dog is now channeling hi prey( directed on the sleeve/booty) to the decoy( into defense of the booty/sleeve), Thus channeling from prey to defense.

  Then the dog trained in such a way when he sees any object resembling the booty object the dog will erroneously redirect from the BG onto such object as we could see on the Albuquerque video.  Such a situation is not necessarily stemming out of the inherent weakness of the dog but instead, it is consistent with the system of the sportism training and it will show even in a genetically strong dog because of the flaw in the logic of the training which I have just described

 

ValKOK everybody disagrees but mainly without explanation. ( except partially ValK) Prager i just can't see any reason to go through sport type training in protection, if dog are destined to be used in real life work. there big difference between two of that.

Prager I agree:

ValK@ Rik could that dog not be the result of poor choice, poor training, poor dog for LE dog to start with?

Rick, it is. and type of training, you put your dog through should work like litmus paper to see dog's potential. if dog can't comply, weed him out and move to next. don't waste time in attempt to improve. in critical circumstances dog will fail, regardless how much time and effort you spend to improve his performance.

 Prager:  I disagree even a genetically strong dog may be messed up by sportism.  The stron dogs VaK is talking about are dogs who work depit of sportis, ( Sportism is the training of PP/LE dog from targetting and equipment to a man through channeling.) 

Valk - no offence taken, and I will try to answer your question, but maybe I am not understanding what your statement/questions is/are. My last post was about a dog that I 'tested/assessed' AFTER the department bought him, to see what I had to work with. I did not punch or kick the dog during testing, but did so after the dog was in training for a bit and had learned that he could 'win' and showed his intensity and enjoyment of the fight with the man. That dog would crank it up when facing active resistance from the decoy, including punches/kicks (not hard enough to injure dog but make him feel it).

Of course, when training the dog (sport or LE), the fight with decoy starts small and dog learns he can 'win', which shows the dog he can overcome the 'adversary'. Build the dog up by letting him win, with greater and greater challenges, until the dog thinks he can overcome any challenge. We taught the dogs that a fight with the man was where the 'action' came from, and the motionless sleeve on the ground did not provide any satisfaction, thereby making the man the focus rather than the equipment. Of course you need a dog that enjoys the fight, but that is what is determined through testing and assessment.

The dog in the example of 'testing' (above) was actually 'washed' from that department's program, not because he was inferior in the man-work, but his tracking/nose-work was not coming along as well as they (the department) wanted. Since tracking and nose-work was their 'bread and butter', this dog was sold to an inner-city police department in USA (not sure where) and became a successful apprehension dog after going through that department's training class (or so I was told). All the other dogs in the class were successful and validated, including the dog that was purchased to replace the 'washed' one. As my life changed soon after finishing that class of dogs, I was not really involved in decoying for that department anymore, and therefore did not keep track of their apprehension success or stories, so cannot say what happened on a 'street' bite scenario with active resistance from the 'bad guy'. Since most of that department's K9 apprehensions were the result of tracking, with few real bites with resistive/combative people, the department trained for that scenario with the on-going decoy work.

Jessy Jones:So my question is how do you train from the start without a sleave or bite suit? Valk, you mention that you did not have these things in the east block...what you you use to train a civil dog? And Prager, how does one test civility? The limitations in testing are kind of obvious"

Prager Hans:  That is the million dollar question people pay me the big bucks for. :)))  Well, really not too big.  In any case, I do not like to talk about it too much in public but I will make an exception to that and say it with a  riddle like an answer just to give you jest of what I am talking about. In reality, I do not like to talk about it too much on a public forum because I do not want people to get hurt or screw up their dogs by doing something which they do not understand 100% since in this format the explanation of 100% is impossible. 

1/if the dog in initial protection training does not ever see any equipment, then it is obvious that such dog will not learn to target the equipment. 

2/ater the dog reaches a certain stage of training to target the man, then the equipment can be used for protection of the decoy and thus proving the dog as a civil dog. 

 This is as far as I am going with this at this time. 

 

Remember channeling from prey to defense is training where the dog is prey biting the sleeve and then when the sleeve is dropped between the dog and the decoy who is trying to steal the sleeve/booty(in prey drive) the dog is redirecting his attention onto the decoy who is trying to steal this object of the dog's prey desire. Thus this dog is now channeling hi prey( directed on the sleeve/booty) to the decoy( into defense of the booty/sleeve), Thus channeling from prey to defense.

What do you say about the helper/decoy who goes after/threatens the dog, AWAY FROM THE SLEEVE, after the sleeve is on the ground?     And the dog that comes after THE MAN, disregarding the sleeve altogether?

Koots: With the correct dog, the transition from sport field to street is 'do-able' with the correct training. Proper selection of dog + proper/good training = capable K9.

Prager Hans: Koots I appreciate you are bringing thsi topic here and that is why I will say with all due respect ( honestly) this type of belief is a cap out. When we train the dog we want to reach the dog's genetically predisposed potential to perform a task. We select a dog best potential. That is given. Of course we want to select the correct dog for such task. But I ask you are you selecting excellent dog so that he can overcome our fukups in training and our illogical methodology, or do we want to give the dog the most excellent training with as few "overcomings" and mistakes as possible and thus utilize such dog's high potential to do great job for us and do it without any baggage? Do we want a logical and smooth training giving the dog the best opportunity to come to by us desired training result based on his genetic potential? Or do we want to do whatever works because everybody else does it? Those are the questions at hand. Personally, I think it is illogical if not wrong to teach the dog to target the fabric and not the man and then reverse it on the poor dog and tell him to bite the man and never to get distracted by equipment/fabric in a presence of a BG. Personally, I believe that during training of PP/LE dog it is more expedient to teach the dog to target the man from get-go and not to target the fabric of an equipment and then teach him not to do so.

One more thing!!!

Remember the baggage is a permanent "default" which is a permanent part of the makeup of the dog to which he will revert when under the stress or when the convenience of opportunity arrives.