Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 21

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PROTECTION TRAINED SHOWLINE MALE
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by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

Duke,

I didn't ask for a single dog that didn't produce a LE, but that is basically impossible to know. I asked for a pedigree that proves that someone is trying to breed for top sport only.

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

What does the dog walking away from the helper during the trial have to do with the dog not being civil?

Sounds like the dog might have had cancer and didn't feel good?!
Prager

by Prager on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

yes, Joan under a certain pressure. Training a dog 100% in the comfort zone is part of the sportism problem. The point is to put pressure on the pup or any dog for that matter, which he can deal with and win.
The problem with your demo video is that if such mild pressure would be applied that dog would go for sleeve. And if you worry about the pressure lets eliminate ANY pressure and put that dog in front of 2 unfamiliar decoys one with sleeve and one without and direct the pup on the one without. The predictable result will be that the dog will target the sleeve on the arm of the decoy . I bet you 10:1.

LOL you mean Love Love. If you want a video of her you can come here and make one. I am happy to demonstrate her "civility" in person to anybody at any time. She is guarding my house at night. So you can start by coming in the middle of the night unannounced and see what will happen. I'll PM you where the house key is. The reason why she went after the sleeve is that in one moment of my temporary insanity ( no, I am not perfect like you) I let myself be influenced by a sportism trainer.

Prager

by Prager on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

I will say one more thing. Even with civil training as I teach it the constant struggle is to keep the dog from preferring to target equipment. That is why 100 percent of my sessions start with the civil decoy. Anyway, I guess I can reveal that little morsel of training civil dog's wisdom.

Prager

by Prager on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

Joan: But what I was pointing out was the fact that the pup totally ignores the sleeve as when the decoy slipped the sleeve directly in front of the pup...he never so much as glanced at it but kept his focus on the decoy at face level. And as far as I'm concerned, this pup shows that typical sport training is not squashing the pup's genetic civil tendency. Btw, each of the sessions are spaced by weeks or months that are seguayed into this video

 

Hans( Prager): Yes Joan!!!!!! this called Channelling from prey to defense where the dog is protecting the sleeve from the decoy. But that is still about the sleeve!!!!! even though at that moment the dog is not the interested in sleeve. Most police dogs are trained that way. However that does not mean that dog does not prefer sleeve when under a certain adequate pressure.  

by Rik on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

all this talk of pedigree. Like I have said many times, I run dogs in circles.

my dogs live in family, house.

even as little as I know, there are certain backgrounds difficult to live in calm, home environment.

but, what do I know. I guess all dogs who score higher than club level, good for any application.

why test for LE ability when only need is to look at pedigree and score?

Rik

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 09 November 2018 - 20:11

Ok, so I have hung on and slogged through 21 pages of this.

Now, I am like Sgt. Schultz...”I know nossink “ about LE, but I do have a little common dog training sense.

My take on this and trying to cut to the chase. I’m going to use CAPS on important words for my own clarity. I’m not shouting:

First, it is ALL about Genetics, looking for the right combo of genetics...that goes without saying ad nauseum as often as it is said. We all know that.

Genetic traits ARE on a sliding scale for EACH drive and temperament in different quality and quantity. Each dog is different.

Not every dog in a litter will have the same temperament...even if the pedigree is a good sport one....could be that the whole litter of great parents is a wash out (for LE or sport)....could be that only 1 is a potential candidate or 3 are potential candidates. Just like people siblings.

Which brings us to the point where the knowlege of HOW to do good QUALITY TESTING comes in.

Second, and tied closely, it is all about TRAINING...

....and only TRAINING the dog to do EXACTLY what you need him to do.

In other words, If the dog is not to go into sport, don’t teach sport.

If the dog is to go into LE, teach LE.

If the dog is to go into sport, teach THAT particular sport, whatever it is, not another sport.

When the dog is older and the foundations are set in whatever discipline the dog was chosen for, maybe then, if you want to switch disciplines, you can branch out into other sports or LE...
.... BUT the default of a first learned thing might pop up now and again (which is where Pragers idea of “sportism” and affection for an exterior jute sleeve, come in to play....and to me, THAT is a real thing).
ADD: So ‘parallel training’  for completely re-teaching similar but slightly  different things  by using different triggers and cues might be necessary.  

Writing about this is so inferior to doing and seeing. Because every dog is different and has to be trained by seeing and doing. Rote training methods don’t always work. You have to LOOK at, and UNDERSTAND where that particular dog is coming from in his mind. His motivation.

Words on forums are so inadequate.

There are as many case senarios as there are dogs.



 

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 20:11

Hans( Prager): Yes Joan!!!!!! this called Channelling from prey to defense where the dog is protecting the sleeve from the decoy. But that is still about the sleeve!!!!! even though at that moment the dog is not the interested in sleeve. Most police dogs are trained that way. However that does not mean that dog does not prefer sleeve when under a certain adequate pressure.

And you call that pathetic...
Let us see your dog you traned from twelve weeks till he was titled. Let's see what you teach it to bite and how it does in the trial after your training with no sleeve.

And putting pressure on the pup is part of the training. Anyone who has ever trained a twelve week old puppy knows that.


by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 20:11

Jesse: Writing about this is so inferior to doing and seeing. Because every dog is different and has to be trained by seeing and doing. Rote training methods don’t always work. You have to LOOK at, and UNDERSTAND where that particular dog is coming from in his mind. His motivation.


And that is why I would take Duke at his word...he trains dogs for a living, and his living depends on the quality of what he turns out! Plus he evaluates dogs for LE/ military prospects, and his reputation depends on the accuracy of his evaluation...plus he breeds dogs specifically for LE/military.....so I would take his word over a speculator who calls a nice pup being trained for sport title that shows a Tendency to be civil, " pathetic". And brags on how he can get a puppy being trained for sport to go for a decoy with a sleeve instead of the man with no sleeve....wow! That is profoundly stupid to expect a PUPPY to not target a sleeve when he is being trained for a sport title....I'd say the training  'took' if the pup targets the decoy with the sleeve. After all, a judge standing right there scoring the dog during the trial tends to frown upon a dog that ignores the decoy and bites the judge instead!
Jmo.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 09 November 2018 - 20:11

Joan-
I have seen some of Dukes vids...and vids from breeders in CR showing what their pups can do...and how they do training sessions....and am always very impressed. Very no nonsense and straight forward training sessions.


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