Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 20

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by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

These posts below were what we were talking about. Multiple times said Top sport dog, not Joe Blow, BYB. I'm still waiting for answers. Stating that these dogs don't possess what some have mentioned, needs an example. If I tell you the sky is green, I'll post a pic of it, otherwise it is more BS. Go work top end sport dogs and you'll see that they possess such traits. Do they have more prey than club level?
sure . Dominance, aggression, fight, etc. Are all more prevalent than your average club dog or they wouldn't be too sport. Do they have more prey than K9s? Not too sure on that. Do their trainers and handlers promote prey drive more? Abolutely!!! Will handlers/owners of pups out of top sport dogs promote prey drive more? Without a doubt!
My point is that through training, we promote what we want. I like a dog that brings it. I also promote the F out of prey. Why? I like a dog that looks good in both B and C phases. I'm asking for pedigrees because all of these dogs produce for both venues. Show me a pedigree of a GSD doing LE, and I'll show you 100 dogs in sport with the same pedigree. Like I said before, if you think top level sport dogs lack these traits, you need to get out and work some of these dogs. Stop listening to someone that sells crap puppies,, and 99% of them are placed with families because they aren't suitable for sport or police.
Again, let me reiterate. I'm not talking about club level. The statement to me was top sport.

"Apple,

Can you show me an example of this? I'd like to see a pedigree from one of these people ruining the breed for top IPO"

"Vito,
Duke, Joan, Gustav and Prager could show you plenty of pedigrees that are planned for top sport dogs that would not cut it as police dogs. I don't have the knowledge base."

by duke1965 on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

vito, can mention some dogs that are long gone, show me the LE offspring of WUSV Eros mohnwiese, or his son,WUSV worldchampion Como bonauer wald,

topsport dogs that achieved the highest possible honour in their discipline, but that is what it is, a points/sport where the qualities of the trainer and its team are maybe even more important than the quality of the dog


nothing but respect for Ronny, his work and his dogs, but one day people got to realize that you cannot walk a street in both directions at the same time

by apple on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

Joanro,
The dogs looks fine for me. I was just pointing out that the training approach of the decoy making so much prey is pretty traditional. And there are folks that incorporate using sleeves on the ground so as not to make the dog equipment oriented. I have come to appreciate an approach were the pup/dog is not being "begged" to bite by making so much prey.
susie

by susie on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

👍Vito!

Most top sport dogs are very good dogs with very good genetics, and because of that people will find them in a lot of LE dog pedigrees.

What does a "top" sport dog need?
Some prey drive
(Alternative /and/or fooddrive)
Aggression
Hardness
Very good nerves
The ability to track

I am not talking about "one day wonders" (= one successful season), but about dogs that proofed their working ability on different club trials, regionals, and Nationals more than once.

Prey only? No chance
Nerve problems? No chance

Those dogs are trained different than PP dogs but the traits they need to be successful are the same.

Will these dogs pass their traits to all of their offspring?
Genetically impossible

Would these dogs be able to perform as police dogs when trained differently?
Sure

Anybody who claims "prey only" or "unstable" dogs are able to perform on a high level pretty regularly don't know what they are talking about.
Just take a "prey only" dog and try it...

It's genetics, followed by training, nothing else.
Back to the pedigrees..




by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

Vito: Stop listening to someone that sells crap puppies,, and 99% of them are placed with families because they aren't suitable for sport or police.
Again, let me reiterate. I'm not talking about club level. The statement to me was top sport.


And tell us why we should listen to you!?
How many pups have you placed for top sport, or police?
So the puppies you are advocating for are not suitable to live with families, and do sport at the same time?
The dogs you advocate are ONLY suitable to live in a kennel? Because they are too .....fill in the blank...to live with a family?
And for those reasons, you believe the dogs you are advocating for are representative of what the breed standard outlines...that they are representative of what the gsd is supposed to be? A dog that is not able to do sport, or work, and also live with a family???

Okydoky, then.
susie

by susie on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

Joanro, a lot of "top sport" dogs are kept in kennels during their "career" not because they are over the top but because the handler wants them to become "over the top" for ultimate points.

I don't like this at all-most of those dogs are absolutely "normal" when given the chance to LIVE normal...and I met a lot of them during and after their career...

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

Apple, I can't help the way sport dogs are trained typically. It's not my preference...the sleeve is not just on the ground...the decoy slipped it right in front of the pup and he never galnced at it...he kept his focus on the decoy. As I said, he shows civil Tendency even with typical sport foundation.
Also, from what I have seen, this decoy does not use the whip anywhere as much a typical decoys...very moderate in his use.
One other thing. The whip is not needed with this pup to fire him up...it also is used to condition the dog to not pay attention to distractions...


I had a decoy here one time that I had to tell him to drop the whip...seems he could not take a breath of air without cracking it.

by joanro on 09 November 2018 - 18:11

Susie: Joanro, a lot of "top sport" dogs are kept in kennels during their "career" not because they are over the top but because the handler wants them to become "over the top" for ultimate points.


I know that, Susie, but my point was Vito knocking pups that are sold to people with families...that there is something wrong with a dog training for sport, yet living with his family.

He uses it as an insult. If the gsd is not supposed to be able to live with their family, then the history and the breed standard need to be re- written. s/

by duke1965 on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

you should not confuse sport and LE from the time when you worked that susie, with what is going on today,

weak nerves, how many do you want, several famous, much breeding dogs produce lots of high drive thin nerved dogs currently,even to the point where they fall apart when triggers are taken away

Prey only, LOL lots of them are sleeveretrievers, nothing wrong with that for sport, but not for LE

lack of civil behaviour in sportdogs was solved by revolutonary new trainingmethod,designed in germany, for dogs to see the helpers body as prey, and get preyreward after barking at the body( sleevebite is the reward)

method and origin of this system where explained by one of germanys greatest, on seminairs, after one of their topdogs walked away from the helper at the bundessieger, 

 

by Vito Andolini on 09 November 2018 - 19:11

Susie,
Thank you.

Joan,
You continue to imply I am the one making a statement. You and others have made the statement. I am asking for proof. Show me some pedigrees that illustrste this. Also, I want to know what these people are breeding for and what they're not. You few are the ones making a claim. I'm asking for your proof, how you came to this idea.

As to why listen to me? You don't have to, but I'm not a breeder. I'm not here to sell you anything. I'm here calling BS on that claim. I have trained with numerous national and world level handlers and dogs. I have done helper work with world level dogs, worked world champion dogs as a helper and have done helper work at seminar for world champion trainer. I started training and decoy with PP and LE.

Not sure what the kennel crap is? I never mentioned anything about where a dog lives or anything outside of asking for proof of this ruining of the breed.


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