Line breeding on Tom Vant leeffdaahof - Page 4

He was defensive which simply put, is fear. Where is the satisfaction of a dog feeling fearful and having to defend himself?

i don't see fear in video but i see dog's bewilderment and uncertainty of what to do.
but again, test was performed incorrectly. that did cause these confusion in the dog.

I am saying that fear is the catalyst for defensive aggression. He tried to chase the guy off by biting at him. I'm not so sure he would have actually bit ot bit and held on because he wasn't trained to do that. So if he is trying to chase the guy off, what do you think is motivating that? Bewilderment or fear/worry? It is not a fault of the dog he is worried. IMO, it is the fault of the training. The dog is being confronted with aggression, but has not be taught how to fight back. Going back to the boxer/MMA analogy, do you think those people are afraid/worried in the ring or simply motivated to dominate their opponent?

Apple,

I can assure you in mma (not o much boxing because of gloves) those guys are worried in the octagon most have one punch power to knock you out. Guys take fights knowing they will probably loose. One needs to look no further than this weekend with Derrick Lewis and Daniel Cormier. Just my two cents

That being said my female is about 68-70 lbs depending on a poop and feeding so I think hank should add a little more size to her offspring (1st breeding)
Great drives, loves bite work
She is aggressive on the sleeve but I feel he can add a little more aggression hopefully from watching his videos
from what I have heard you can take him and a lot of his offspring into a daycare and he/they will be just fine with the kids which is important to me.


so to followup Tom does not look like he will add in negative head/nerve issues, so does everything else look good in the pedigree? No head cases ?

I guess I should also add that I am open to a possible better male if one is suggested just really like the way hank looked in his videos.

I am saying that fear is the catalyst for defensive aggression. He tried to chase the guy off by biting at him. I'm not so sure he would have actually bit ot bit and held on because he wasn't trained to do that. So if he is trying to chase the guy off, what do you think is motivating that? Bewilderment or fear/worry?

again, the test isn't about protection but as i said earlier, to check out threshold and intensity of response to agitation. that it.
in video i see the dog, who is old enough to be familiar and accept handler control (basic obedience).
i don't see any indicators of fear in that dog. presence of handler next to dog (factor of control) does confuse dog - how to respond to teasing.
i guess that bewilderment of dog is what you took as a fear.

I don't know the dogs in the pedigree enough to give a valid assessment. But you might consider that Hank and Tom are top sport dogs. The aggression you are seeing is more likely drive than aggression. I did have firsthand knowledge of Union(Jack) van't Leefdaalhof, who was also a top sport dog. Same paternal and maternal grandsire, and same dam as Tom. Not a dog I would consider for adding aggression per se. He was also small and a light sable. He did win the SchH 3 NA championship and made the U.S. team for the WUSV. Jack was clear headed.  I did have a son out of Jack, who IMO was overly defensive, but probably was more of a fluke because he was line bred on Falko von haus Sindern, who was more of a police type dog.  Plus the Jack son was on the small side and not particularly clear headed.

https://tinyurl.com/Strike-von-hamilberg
https://tinyurl.com/Lolita-Moravia-campanella
A litter just perduced 3 month now all pups went to working homes 19 puppies in total all shown stability and nerve and balance drive very happy with this litter

That dog in the video nice I won guv him a go. Not my way of testing the dog but each to their own. Easy to throw stones when on Internet.

  @ apple

Personally, I have no idea what does this has to do with linebreeding on Tom van't Leeffdaahof but I am game. OK step by step.

Apple: You talk about "real" dogs vs. sport dogs. This subject has been beat to death in the dog world and really has little meaning.

Hans: Well if that is the truth, then we have more problems then I thought. Once you start saying that there is no difference between sport and work dog, we are in trouble. But I suspect that there is  "really little meaning" in the difference between sport and working dog only to sport dog people. The fat is that there is such a giant chasm between sport and work that to some people  the other edge of the chasm is so far away that they can not see nor understand or admit the other edge of the chasm even exists. 

Apple: You say you want the dogs to work for you and the satisfaction of the work done and you want your dogs to please you. To me, that is all anthropomorphizing.

Hans:  How is that anthropomorphizing??!! The purpose of working ( herding included) dog is to work for and with the man. There is tremendous satisfaction which the dog does and there is tremndous satisfaction in the dog when he is praised for it by the sheepherder.  To work for the man is is the original purpose of the dog. I know that there are people who believe that dogs are like little robots with drives and instincts and man is using them same way as he is using screwdriver or Skill saw. Well, I think that such way of thinking is flat and lacks understanding of the relationship the dog has with his master. I hate to bring the subject but it is the same as when the dog is working with and for the good of the pack.  OK, are you now going to  tell me that dogs do not live in a pack and that they do not see man as a dog. Bnd so on. Oh well .....

 

 Apple: The dog you showed being tested was protecting himself, not you. Why not start out with the "tester" coming forward toward you and slapping you and see what the dog does?

Hans: Why not? I am not against such test but that was not such test. The test was to show how much stress the dog  can deal with in order to protect HIMSELF. If the dog can not protect himself then such dog is useless for any other training as a protection/LE dog. That is one of my biggest issues with the sport. sport does not deal with this issue.  

 

Apple: He was defensive which simply put, is fear.  

Hans: defense does not necessarily imply fear. That is sports talk. But that is a differen story and here  I will not get into idiosyncracies of this issue. Except I ask a question. What is wrong with fear? My answer is nothing.  On this later. 

 

Apple: Where is the satisfaction of a dog feeling fearful and having to defend himself?

Hans:  whre is a satisfaction of riding rollocoster - which is based on fear. It is adrenaline rush. Such adrenalin rush caused by combed becames desirable and addictive - which any combat vet and adrenaline junke can atest to. On top of it the satisfaction is in victory and also it comes from approval of the dog's handler. These are ultimate highs which trainer who understands these things will use in his training.  Do not equate satisfaction and fun though. One can have staisfaction from doing things which are not fun. besides examples above, I can give you a one more prosaic example.  Like I am getting satisfaction from cleaning dog shit because I am doing the right thing but I do not think it is fun. The same way works the dog's drives.  

Apple: Eventually, dogs like this can be conditioned to "protect" you, but in reality are protecting themselves.

Hans: Well this goes along with what I am talking about all the time. The dog and the handler have the same goal and thus they work together to achieve such a goal and then they both benefit. That is what I mean when I say the dog works with you and for you. I do not care if someone accuses me of anthropomorphizing but I have been around and with dogs long enough to know that that is the truth.  That is the essence of partnership and in case of dogs that partnership is called "pack" instinct and drive(s).

Apple: They certainly can be successful in different venues, but their motivation to bite is originally out of fear. I am not saying they are fear biters, but they are not what I consider the most confident type of dog.

Hans: Why are you using the word "but"? Again I ask you to think about, what is wrong with fear?  Without fear, we would not survive and we would quickly all extinct.I'll give us 24 -48 hours.  That is why it baffles me why are sports people against working with fear in training. In real life, it is inevitable or at leasdt highly probable that the PP/LE dog will encounter negative challenge which will trip fear = fight or fight. THAT IS WHY the training must deal with it if his dog should be a proficient protector. That is what I mean when I say that during protection training the dog must be pushed out of comfort zone and then win. Which means to teach him how to deal with fear and how when facing negative challenge the dog needs to ALWAYS choose fight over flight. It is a must to teach the dog and to give the dog experience that if he pushes harder then he will ALWAYS win. That is ultimately where the satisfaction comes from. Where in sport the dog is worked within a comfort zone because sport trainers are terrified that the dog may show fear. So they mistakandly remove all negative challenge and work the dog in prey where fear foes not come into the picture. But that is not a courage! that is lack of opportunity to deal with the negative challenge.  Oh and let's not forget that the sport dog during training and performance, must have and project that he has fun.

The crux of the matter however is that dog which never dealt with fear triggering effect of the negative challenge will not know what to do when he encouteres one. The trainer of this system only hopes that the dog's prey will override neagative challenge to the point that the dog will not notice it.   Such hope unfortunatelly cused many people their lives when their dog failed in real life situation. And because of that such training is derelict in recognition what is the reality of a PP/LE dog.

APPLE: Aren't all of Jinopo's breeding stock sport titled? So are they real dogs or sport dogs?

Hans: You may have missed it but I keep saying ad nauseam that good working dog should be able to perform well in the sport as one of the subsections of the total picture of working dogs. Also in Czech in order to breed and get registration on the dog's pups, you must title the dog plus other things. 

There is nothing wrong with using fear in training, it is starting out with it that I disagree with. The difference between a sport dog and working dog can simply be what the goals of training are, not the genetic capacity of the dog.