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by susie on 29 October 2018 - 23:10
Without preydrive no policedogs-no desire to catch fleeing specimen...
Without preydrive no drug or bomb detection dogs, no SAR dogs, no herding dogs..
Prey drive is an extential part of a dog, without preydrive no survival.
The so called "dogsports" are young (around 100 years) and the training techniques developed immensely during this short time frame.
Positive learning was unknown, pinchcollar and force was common.
Teaching the retrieve? That was more than cruel.
Teaching the out? Two pinchcollars, 2 leashes and strong men.
Why? Because we didn't know better, not because the dogs were stronger or lacked preydrive.
Preydrive was always existant, but not developed and not used.
by 1Ruger1 on 30 October 2018 - 00:10
by ValK on 30 October 2018 - 00:10
susie, it's just says you're not familiar with other type, than prey based.
prey, artificially sustained and justified in breeds, purposed for hunt. other than that, domesticated canines don't have needs for hunt to survive throughout millennia.
in the works, success in which you do attribute to prey drive, isn't necessarily as you describe it.
prey in apprehension used nowadays more due to absence of dogs with trait of offenser/fighter, backed by strong willingness to dominate over human-opponents. that what i meant saying - defense was substituted by prey.
in regard of detection, c'mon... dogs explore the world through their noses. that been called in general term a nose work, regardless dog is tracking the prey or sniffing piss on the fence. utilize this peculiar trait wisely and even dog with absolute absence of prey can become super tracker/search dog.
b.t.w. topic about limited registration but as usual, turned into discussion about dogs specifics and concepts about relationship and training the dogs :)
by 1Ruger1 on 30 October 2018 - 01:10
Valk~ threads have a tendency to take on a life of their own lol. It’s the natural progression of things I guess, but I’d rather a thread takes its natural course then for moderation to step in and insist on everyone “staying on topic” I’ve found that when a thread is forced to go a specific direction it tends to kill the thread all together.
It can be frustrating if you feel the original topic hasn’t fully been discussed to your satisfaction.
I feel the same way sometimes, but if you keep asking questions and making comments pertaining to the direction you’d like the thread to head it usually brings it back that direction again. Lol that’s the technique I’ve used in the past ! 😊
by beetree on 30 October 2018 - 01:10
I really want to hear about the second part of the discussion, that only RiK has had the fortitude and finesse to mention as a real consequence.
by 1Ruger1 on 30 October 2018 - 02:10
Thank you for your response waaaay back on page 3 ,,,,😊
Btw 👋🏼 🐝
by Vito Andolini on 30 October 2018 - 03:10
"People not allowed to do my helper work"
Rik
If you read my initial posts, I stated that I've never even run into a breeder that has LR. I don't know where you want me to pull a name out of, but the smell of 🌹 won't be in the air. 💩.
I said I'm sure there are some out there. Nothing more. Was trying to be cordial, but you guys are getting me triggered.
As to standard? Good working dog with solid nerves, confidence and balanced drives. I'll let you guys argue what is pretty.
Hans
You basically reiterated what I said about the courage test, etc. during training. I'm not sure what you're getting at. We were talking about the trial, which the helper doesn't run away. We do things in training that you'll never see in a trial. Helpers in multiple blinds, weighted dumbbells, hold and bark in a dark barn, woods, in a bush, on a train track, on the outside of the blind, with multiple people crowding.
I know you've seen a helper put a dog into defensive drive prior to a prey exercise in training. Does that now make it a defense test in a trial? Nope. Unless I'm confused by your thoughts, we are on different pages.
Riddle me this. How often do your dogs gather when you throw them the ball? Or when they're chasing a squirrel? Or better yet, when they're doing the Escape?
Answer those and I'll tell you my thoughts on why you rarely see a Malinois gather.
by Vito Andolini on 30 October 2018 - 03:10
I didn't see that link you put up. Lots of Blabla's dogs in there. PS. They gotta have prey.
What do you do with your dogs? IPO?
by Prager on 30 October 2018 - 06:10
Vito, we definitely must be on different pages. I am talking about the fact that IPO and so on does not test the dog's courage when stressed in defense. I am saying that so-called courage test in these trials is a prey based catching exercise. I am not aware of what trial you are talking about I am talking about courage test as prescribed by IPO. As I have explained it in the previous post, such test is basically trained as a prey exercise regardless which way the helper is running ( away from or towards the dog) Dog does not go into defense just because a confused rabbit changes direction and now runs directly at the dog. It is still prey. Same applies to so-called courage test in IPO. The dog who slips from prey - where he looks good into defense where he does not look good in such exercise is eliminated because he gathers or misses or in general DOES NOT LOOK GOOD. Thus, the defense is despised by sports trainers because during defense the dog is making a decision of fight or flight and such does not look as good as if he would be in careless prey. Which is my point. SV based sports or basically, any sport does not test for defense as a positive natural protectiveness, but it eliminates dogs who tend to have such traits and who slip into defense drive during courage test. Dog in prey does not gather as you aptly describe, thus all dogs who are trained for sports awarding points are trained to be in a mindset of prey during so-called courage test. This is detrimental to the breed.
Q: How often do your dogs gather when you throw them the ball? Or when they're chasing a squirrel? Or better yet, when they're doing the Escape?
A: never because the prey object is running away so gathering is not advantageous for the purpose of catching the object moving away.
As far as Malis goes, they do not gather because they are in perpetual prey drive. Dogs in prey drive do not gather. Dogs in defense drive may. There is no courage necessary when the dog is in prey >Thus, since in prey, courage test is a fake name.
by apple on 30 October 2018 - 13:10
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