Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 4

Susie, you see, that is what happens when you hate someone to the point that cannot hear what they are saying and hear only what you want to hear. Actually, your post is so convoluted that I can not even tell what you are saying.  I know, I know; now you will say that you do not hate me. Whateverrrr.  But you know, I am the foremost expert on what I know and teach and I am here to tell you that your statement of what I am explaining is if not totally out of whack at least quite incomplete. 

 

Same as Joanro. Can you tell me where I have said 100s of male dogs? Please stop making crap up. You are totally lost in what and at this point, I am not sure why I am even responding to you. At least Susie has some attempt for logic in her discussion even though her last post is totally incoherent to me.

Joanro  Here is something you can exercise your logic on. Here it goes. All dogs have sire and dam. That is why if all those dogs, males and females,  have sires from one line, then all dogs on that pedigree males and females are from that particular line. Thus males and females have importance based on differences of genetic dominance of their genetic makeup and not on their sex. That sex is in question is your concoction. 

Prager, for what it's worth...

I don't know you; I am not even interested in Czech working lines; I don't make any money out of breeding,selling, or training dogs - that said I am able to think on my own without any negative side effects.

I just believe in science and logic, and your posts, as soon as it's about genetics, tend to argue against science and logic, sorry.

You need to distinguish between the once in a life time results of a breeder who had the rare opportunity to select and breed hundreds of dogs without monetary problems (because kennel, dogs, and outcome paid by State) like Jiri Novotny, and real life breedings ( the pedigree of one litter being the result of at least douzends of breeders with at least douzends of different goals in mind).

Although the horizon looks flat I know the earth is a ball...
and genetics are genetics.

Prager, your attempt at insulting me, only exposed your hypocracy...male line, that's what you've been touting ad nauseum. Those males must be bred to a female to produce the next generation....you select the named sire and exclude the dam he is paired with ...generation after generation..

And here is what you said, . I am taking into account 100s of dogs and they are talking into account 2 or 4 dogs. Tell me who has better predictability what will they produce.

If you are taking into account 100s of dogs, you must still know them personally... back a whole lot of generations for more decades then jiri was breeding them. How many hundreds? male tail line? That would be more generations than the breed has existed.

 

The dogs a hundred generations back are not relevant when looking at a pair in the present. What is relevant are the decendents...you know, the dogs still standing with four feet in top of the ground .

actually, when testing dogs I do test large numbers of ofspring of dogs that breed a lot females, and for sure I dont see the majority of the offspring of each dog, but can tell you that most dogs dont look like daddy in any way shape or form, be it looks or caracter/temperament

 

again, with linebreeding and selection this could work somewhat, but not in a world where every bitch in heat will be bred to the latest flavour of the month, who most of the time is mostly outcrossed himself

Blackmal:

I have owned many Czech/DDR dogs before, some were victims of their own drive, some were not. I had one that I trained as a service dog, all Czech lines, and he is still hahppily helping his very active blind handler.

I am considering west german woerking lines, and I have put down a deposit on a litter coming up in a few months. I am also receiving a Czech?west German pup on Friday to train as my backup dog because of a previous injury that was dealt my service dogd. He has been examined by his own vet and by vets at Cornell and Tufts, and both say he is fit to work, but may have troubles in later age...but then again, they both say he might not, so I want to be prepared.

My boy is *very* high drive, (especially his fight drive when the decoy puts on the pressureP,he's serious withought being unfriendly, he is a service dog, sar dog and he goes into businesses to do narcotics detection. A busy team we are.

As for the six dogs I have trained for myself, two were Czech/DDR dogs, both with a great fight drinve, but friendly when appropriate.

Valk , Prager is not talking about line breeding by selecting certain traits and concentrating them through line breeding. He is talking about " in line breeding" through only selecting a male from decades ago.

Joan, it seems misunderstanding comes from simplified perception. i don't think Prager meant literally use only of sire who did establish line. in my understanding the dog, founder of the line, serves just as a starting point. since the male dog during the lifespan can produce much greater quantity of offspring than female, thus offer greater pool to choose from for following usage, all lines are build on male progeny. for sure such dog must be not only outstanding in qualities, but be very potent in passing this qualities to produced pups.
so, his genetically based characteristics will pass to descendants. female dogs, on condition that they are very similar to male dog, wouldn't ruine base (established by line founder) but will diversify and widen genetic pool with an identical to founder dog qualities. in that way you, knowing potential of particular dog and keeping matting to preserve this qualities, most likely will find good match among distant descendants of founder dog than dog from outside the line.
i see it as logical way in breeding but as i mentioned before, unfortunately it won't work in commercial environmental.

Valk, you are making sense, but that isn't what Prager is talking about...it's only the males in his
'in line male breeding'....only the male's are to be considered.
Notice, you're not to call his phylosophy, ' line breeding' ....he makes a distinction because 'line breeding' is conventional in terms of dog breeding, but his is ' inline breeding males' . (What breeders would call the
' male tail line' )

@ Blackie the cajun If you are satisfied with youre DDR/CZECH dogs good for you But IMO that eastern lines are not so special haven,t seen any what I can,t find in the western lines . The Western lines population is bigger and more proven offspring worldwide, there is a lot of choice in different bloodlines who are well known many years back in the pedigree. For the that eastern lines it much more dificult to get trustfull information about that lines. Even in my small country I get everything what I went for quality GSD I don,t need CZECH /or DDR breeders for what??? Here in KNPV have seen GSD from some famous CZECH kennels who can,t make it not that drives,hardness ,courage , a very few Czech GSD are certified but I,m not impressed about that dogs, have seen better  pure western GSD here. We can discuss about quality what is exellent and what not everybody has his own opinion and some are very happy with there CZECH/DDR lines so be it, Than there are some nice GSD from the past like Zoran Ben Ju who have produced some nice offspring but that whole father line is Western goes back to Pike Schafbachmuhle, the czech breeders will say hey look athe that  female line.....it is czech I don,t call this pure eastern pedigree, I think most of today eastern pedigrees have some western influence ?

 

Not bashing or dishing people here only give an honest opinion 

Hope you will find what you expect and ofcourse must  have some luck with every new  pup.

Ennehh   I have seen better offspring out of quality females than only about   worldwide  famous males . Proven quality females in pedigree this is  also what you need not only famous  over hyped stud dogs.

Hornhutte here in Holland have some exellent young females in IPO/ KNPV a small not comercial  breeder but most of time real quality.

Kennel Zeelberg also for many years quality  females... NOT only males. Mostly breeders here  are not  enthusiastic about eastern bloodlines  they don,t need them for any reason.

Blackmalinois iv sent u a pm thanks