Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 3

Old wives' tale....mythology.

I look at the parents, or potential parents; temperament, structure, character is tough to hide.

Joan, i wouldn't call it myth.
particular line characteristic can be sustained perhaps into infinity, on condition of harsh weeding out all weak specimens, produced in this line and only strong ones allowed to continue line heritage. there will continue to pop up undesirable dogs but overall would be possible to minimize such sub-product and provide assured probability of suitability for particular purposes of following generations in specific line.
pre pop-commercialization era of breed and former DDR system was pretty much based on that principle.

 

b.t.w. preservation of pure genetics isn't main reason and purpose for line establishment but outstanding specifics of particular dog, who established the line, and which should be enriched by injecting fresh genetics but with similar traits.

Susie:"Isn't this the goal of breeding? Very simplified said: Taking the best dogs available, hoping for similar or even better characteristics in the puppies, sire and dam as similar as possible? "

Hans: well yes but there is more to it than that. people opposing this concept of male lines in error think that this is all about producing quality dogs. But breeding in male lines is not only about quality, even Jaonro will breed good quality I can not deny her that. But on top of this, this is about types of dogs we are producing. Sport, work prey, defense, smaller larger, color and so on. From that we get suitability for sport or police or home protection. That way we can predict what dogs we will produce.  There are different types of dogs in each bloodline. Yes, you always need to select the best, that is given, but you are way better of if you take into consideration the type of dogs you are breeding which is represented by the line they are in.
Example: Let say it is known that the 3rd line will give super prey drive, very versatile dogs, high endurance, and drive, smaller square dogs. So if you breed consistently in 3rd line that is what you will get. If you do this for 3 or more generations then that is going to be the result I can bet you $20. Here is typical dog linebred on 3rd line with 4th. That gave him super prey and super hardness. Jago jipo me:

. Smaller square dog, super prey, hard participant in(WUSV 2011)  
On the other hand, for example, the 4nd line will give you  square dogs super protectiveness, handler aggression, early workers. As you can see in jago the 3rd and 4th compliments each other. 

 Gero z Blatenskeho zamku got the 4th in his temperament. he was basically a Gangster dog. 
Now, of course, you will select the best representative of the line you breed and you will get a super uniform litter of the characteristics of the line your breeding dogs are from.

However, if you select the best available dogs and disregard the line which they are from and breed lines haphazardly, you will get maybe good dogs - no problem there, but you will get goulash of characteristics and type. This happens bacause the progeny is not just reflection of the parent's which are only a small window ( phenotype) of what is behind them ( Genotype).
If you want to know better your dog's genotype then you breed consistently in the line and you will know,... and more you know about the genotype of your dogs better you can controll what you get.


The uniformity and the predictability of what you get are very important and breeding male lines is about the predictability of a type.

because of level of outcrossing, and influence of female, the majority of offspring will look hardly anything like the sire, thats were that idea generally ends, other than where you will linebreed and only select fathertypical offspring to continue with, but that is not happening most of the time

duke1965, dogs don't need to be exact visual clone of sire. in line breeding must be retained particular characteristics and specifics,
as prager said - uniformity. as example you can look at development of show line. selection for breeding exclusively dogs of particular coloring and physical build and you got easy recognizable dogs of particular line.

for working breeding purpose visualy noticeable uniformity may absent but working characteristics is what makes particular line standing out. that is how was established lines which excel in herding, or tracking, or protection.
the dogs, which did pass through our club back in 70s-80s was very similar in their character - calm in neutral situation but dominant toward human, very independant, low in prey but very stubborn in confrontation. had similar sturdy build but definately not as much uniform. that was result of continuous selection of the type exclusively suitable for patrol purpose and only dogs with exact same specific was returned back to border kennel. dogs with slightest evasion from that norm was washed out.

Valk , Prager is not talking about line breeding by selecting certain traits and concentrating them through line breeding. He is talking about " in line breeding" through only selecting a male from decades ago.
What you are describing is normal, selective breeding on traits, not on a name of a certain dog from eons ago.

Valk, really do you think in working dogs im talking about looks, ……………………………………….

How am I not talking about selecting certain characteristics?!  Valk is talking about certain characteristics which must be reserved in the line. That is EXACTLY what Male line breeding is. Certain lines have certain characteristics. I select the best individual from the specific line with those characteristics. That way I am way ahead of breeders who breed pedigree goulash based only on characteristics of parents or maybe grandparents. I am taking into account 100s of dogs and they are talking into account 2 or 4 dogs. Tell me who has better predictability what will they produce.

Wrong.

You more than once told people their dog is a x/y/z line dog only because one of there x great great whatever fathers is dog x out of line y, without even knowing parents, grandparents...( selection? Goals of x different single breeders? )

Selection? Who knows?
Genetics? Who cares?
X hundreds of different ancestors able to be responsible for single traits? No matter-it has to be ancestors x out of line y, no matter the probability.

That's what you are selling people, nothing else.

Prager: am taking into account 100s of dogs and they are talking into account 2 or 4 dogs. Tell me who has better predictability what will they produce.

And with those 100 s of male dogs, there must be 100s of female dogs ...or do your male dogs reproduce without the chromosomes from female dogs?
It's seems to be off kilter assessing only half the package.

Reminds me of people who only buy a puppy because the sire ' looks awsome' even though the dam might be a shaking quaking hump back hock walking ass dragging POS .

I'll stick with my program...been very predictable and consistent quality.