Long Stock coat genetics? - Page 3

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by khalirey on 06 August 2018 - 20:08

@Susie Thanks!

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 August 2018 - 07:08

Thanks for clarifying, Susie.

Sorry if my references to the various ruling bodies were confusing (I'm not really confused about their roles in my own head, but its difficult to set out straight in a post here without going into too much detail).

 

OK, so my understanding from what you say is that: 1. no-one in Germany was supposed to breed with "coats", (under SV direction), because this was regarded as 'undesirable' / a 'fault' right from the start, so they were acknowledged as existing, but not allowed for the Stud Book or therefore anything else (Korung, (show) Grades, BH, AD, IPO etc.;   HGH ?). Presumably they were registered with VDH, still ?

Until: 2. at some point in the last 10 years (i.e. quite a bit earlier than the SV told member clubs/countries to officially 'recognise' the Long Coat type and allow them to be shown / graded) they became less undesirable; but still not to be cross-mated with Stock coats.

It follows that the numbers within the breed in Germany must still be at the original 'natural occurence' level of under 12 % ? And that ALL "coats" currently alive in Germany are the product of LSH to LSH matings ONLY ? Certainly makes me wonder how there are any good enough to run around an arena, whether or not in direct competition with the Stock coats. And yet ... there are coated dogs now lining up which are not only very good examples of the GSD breed (aside from what is thought about the length of their hair), but also have a very modern structure ... Interesting.

 

PS: maybe I missed this completely, but I do not recall any mention of any direction about whether cross-mating was verboten in the communications from the SV to WUSV Member Clubs internationally saying that the long coated variety should now be 'recognised' for Show etc purposes.

susie

by susie on 07 August 2018 - 19:08

You really missed this completely 😃

LCs have always been allowed to join any events besides show and breedsurvey . Why not???

Till the day coats became allowed for breeding again they popped up on regular basis out of stock coated parents, and they still do.

Today they are allowed for breeding (coat/coat ) , no difference to puppies out of longcoated parents, they are registered as coats.
Makes sense, because both kinds of puppies do carry 2 recessives for longcoat.

There are no statistics, but out of experience I guess (!) more than 40% of the showlines and more than 20% of the working lines did and do carry the recessive for longcoat.

SV was smart enough to stay away from a mandatory gene test - it's stupid to weed out longcoat carriers, so the coats survived.

Now they are allowed - people love them - they become more and more, because now more and more breeders do breed for coats.

Good? Bad?

Personally I like the appearance of coats, as you maybe know I owned a beautiful coat, but I wouldn't use them for breeding.
In my opinion for a "working" dog the stock coat is way better than the long (stock) coat, and for those really interested in a coat the "regular" breedings produced enough coated puppies.

During the SV "ban" several small longcoat clubs developed in Germany, all of them not recognised by VDH.
When the coats became allowed again those dogs had the chance to get back into SV - almost none were able ( and the breeders willing ) to do so.
Without any mandatory working trials most of them had become nice looking pet dogs "only" - not able to fulfill the SV standard in case of minor working ability any more...

THAT'S interesting

Kind regards



Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 August 2018 - 19:08

Susie I was just taking what you said on the previous page too literally, I guess. Its useful for the OP that you confirm L/Cs can come out of 'stock' coat matings, and that answers my own questions - because if it was not 'always' such an absolute rule to keep the two coat types strictly apart, that explains (a) how the genes continued to get mixed (both for coat, and for developing structural type actually), in your country and in mine; and (b) why I had never heard of this 'ban' on cross mating until the Harmonisation paper was released.

I know what you mean about the product of the small L/C fanciers clubs; one look at most of the dogs produced by the money-oriented 'coats & funny colours' mob over here tells us the same thing about the quality of the dogs.


susie

by susie on 07 August 2018 - 20:08

Hund, the OP seems to be well aware of coat genetics.
He didn't question the existence of longcoats out of stock coated parents, but the existence of stock coated puppies out of long coated parents, and per my understanding he is right.

Coat length has nothing to do with structure - the " better structured " coats are tell tales, based on the smoother lines because of all that coat- coat does cover faults pretty well...
Touch them, through them in water, and there is no difference in quality 😀


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