what are the requirement(list) for a GSD to qualify as an entry in the annual BSZS? - Page 2

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by Gustav on 18 May 2018 - 20:05

I hear what you are saying Susie, but frankly as one who has been involved LE dogs for quite a long time, the Czech linedogs for past 20 years have been the most plentiful LE GS in the States by a large margin. I understand the need for ( imo) extreme prey in the sport world, but many of the Czech dogs are more moderate in drives, yet make excellent working dogs. My original post specified the lack of SL in either sport or work, knowing that the sport requires the prey drive for excellence, and the work requires very strong nerves although moderate drives won’t prohibit the dog. Either way, I have seen the “strong” SL dog rarely used in either anymore yet their are more of them then the WL and Czech dogs combined. It really doesn’t logically make sense if these dogs are stronger. Not trying to be contentious, but I’m real big on logic.

by Centurian on 18 May 2018 - 21:05

I have to second Gustav's comment. In the USA I have seen the same . I add but one comment : what he wrote is more true than most would realize ....

susie

by susie on 18 May 2018 - 22:05

???

Gustav, we talked about the BZS , not about the requirements for PP or police...why the heck do you always only define this breed about it's ability to perform as a police dog ???

Besides that, you are not the only one "involved" in real dogs.
When we tried to find good dogs for the International market ( mainly American departments ) in the eighties we already had problems - no difference.
German dogs are neither bred nor specifically trained for those jobs, never have been, producing police dogs has never been the goal of this breed, it just happens; whereas Mals traditionally were bred and trained for these jobs ( changed during the last decade, too 😐 ), similar to the "East" dogs offered for a while now. Way cheaper dogs, less restrictions, trained for one goal - I don't mind.

So different goals, different social structures = different outcome -
I try to be big on logic and reality, too.

The GSD per standard has to be an allround dog, no policedog.
You remember the old slogan "second best at everything" ?
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 19 May 2018 - 00:05

Susie 👍 spot on.

I don’t know why these discussions always pop up again and again....and go round and round.

We can’t compare apples to oranges and we can’t turn apples into oranges. Nor turn oranges into apples.

Different dogs for different jobs and different goals.

Everyone in the last few posts is correct in their own way...in their own circle of influence and expertise, and in the style of dog they like, or look for, or work with, or the country they live, and the system they are working in.

by Gustav on 21 May 2018 - 11:05

Susie, I NEVER speak of breeding FOR police dogs. I initially asked about the LACK of seeing these dogs in SPORT or WORK, if they are in fact stronger as you say. Yes, the dog is supposed to be ALL around dog, I have said that numerous times, so WHY are these stronger dogs almost nonexistent in Sport and work being the all around strong dogs they should be. You have evaded my question, by giving false premise of me talking about  LE dogs and turning the focus from all around dogs being absent from historical venues of excellence for the breed. I’m disappointed you have not addressed my question, but I know why....logic and reality.

So my point is that the GSD is not Bred for police dogs( which I wholeheartedly agree), yet shouldn’t SOME of them be capable or else why don’t they use rally sport as requisite for good breeding? Why use format that mimics LE work? 

Look, you don’t have to answer, we have been around this tree to many times, we’ll let reasonable people draw their own conclusions about what we wrote. Fair enough?

by Gustav on 21 May 2018 - 11:05

Thank you Jesse Jones, you inadvertently said what many people won’t or are ashamed to say....that there are apples and oranges within the breed. Just that simple ...and apples aren’t oranges and oranges aren’t apples....plain and simple. So this all around stuff is really a oranapple.lol

by ValK on 21 May 2018 - 14:05

The GSD per standard has to be an allround dog, no policedog.
You remember the old slogan "second best at everything" ?

Susie, this pup does IPO requirements... e.g. shows some sort of obedience, agility, courage and willingness for fight. 
does it mean french bulldog breed should be moved from decorative breed into working or at least this one particular 
dog can be used as protection dog?
comparing SL GSDs of nowadays and saying they did become better, comparing to SL of the past, perhaps you're right. 
but it doesn't make them versatile in respect of expectation that among SL breeding one may find candidates for different 
working purposes, varying from therapy dog to law enforcement and everything in between.
nevertheless, in spite of lack of working abilities, SL still in category of working breed dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5B0R6A2EpQ


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 23 May 2018 - 21:05

Gustav-

not really inadvertantly...I’m not saying anything new in my last post.

Just to recap for some readers...because the people active on this forum know all this that I am writing...and more:

We have 110 years worth of breeding.
So about around 220 generations of dogs.

The standard for the  “all around dog” made 110 years ago technically still stands, but was bound to get booged down becasue of different groups wanting different things in this ‘all around’ dog.

The show lines are breeding formost for their own expectations and perhaps it is not overwhelmingly for work related abilities - I write overwhelmingly, which doesnt mean no working abilities, but perhaps not as much as working lines...although I don’t know. I believe Susie knows more on that aspect, from what I have read from her experience and her posts.

A sheep herding (sport - obedience/agility) dog will need more original breed components. The breed was created from german sheep herding dogs - mostly sheep herding with some protection. But there were other sheep dog breeds at the time that were specifically for protection (bigger and less attached to humans, that lived with sheep)...these where not the ones used for the base of GS. But ones that were more in-tuned to the human, wanted to please, were extremely watchful, and could effectively move the herds...Trott all day, etc.

And then there are the law enforcement/military people (sport, PP, IPO), who are also looking for, and breeding for more attributes that work best in LE, some of which are not really strong in the original breed components, IMO. Which is why the Mals and others bred for more aggression filled this space as well.

No wonder the breed is in it’s current state of change. Be it good or bad.

If the GS was not an ‘all around working dog’, but a more exactly defined dog with a more exact usage, then we wouldnt be in this state.
The “all around” part has created lots of different venues that the gs can be specifically bred to gear towards.

Compounding to this is globalization. How can what is foremost a German dog, bred with German goals, in a German system, go global? That is a hard task indeed. Every country has different stock, different needs, and different styles and, Yes, even different political systems.

The ddr- czech working stock comes from a different political system and more police/boarder patrol oriented dogs were bred than in west Germany.

Have the Germans (SV) done a good job over the years in keeping an all around dog current? Well, that is certainly very debatable...and a debate that rages in all aspects of german shepherdom in the past up to and especially today.

But like any system, many are afraid to call out issues since their own dogs reputations are at risk... and their standing is at risk in any clubs that preach a certain dogma...if they go against it.

The story of the emperor’s new clothes come to mind.
 

by Gustav on 24 May 2018 - 15:05

👍👍👍
susie

by susie on 25 May 2018 - 20:05

Logic and reality - the overwhelming majority of the showlines I trained and saw in the eighties were mediocre at best, they became better from decade to decade - they became "STRONGER".

Logic and reality - during that time there were almost no Belgian Malinois/Dutch Shepherds outside of Belgium/the Netherlands, and no cheap bred Czech dogs, only a single few in the nineties...

"Dual purpose dogs" were almost unknown, the crazy ones were sold for crowd control, the prey driven ones for drugs, but all of them not suitable for IPO ( be it because of lack of adequate temperament, conformation, or because of missing teeth or testicles ).

Germany doesn't breed GSDS for police or personal protection, never did - other countries do, and a lot of them don't care about breed standards, or honest pedigrees....
easy breeding, fast money, brokers love it...

Just a guess - 2 more "dog generations" and Belgium Malinois are out of the game, too. Why? They became fancy, prices arise, and it's expensive to follow breed rules. Right now it's already the X-Mal without pedigree, but in the long run the East European dogs are way cheaper ( no training restrictions, almost no breeding restrictions, life standard as a whole 1/4 to 1/10 of West Europe depending on the single country - not even talking about corruption and fake results - DNA? Who cares? The dogs only have to fulfill the broker's standard they were trained (!) for....).

Depressing, but true, and from the view point of a police department, absolutely understandable.

Logic and reality..



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