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by ValK on 24 May 2018 - 19:05

if dog highly enjoying the fight and really reaches the climax when biting live flesh - what kind of reward then handler
can offer in exchange for willingness of dog to release the bite immediately on the first command?

that's interesting discussion in here but i noticed main ingredient was missed - handler authority over dog's ego.
instead the talk mainly about the tricks how to "bribe" the dog :)

by Jessejones on 24 May 2018 - 19:05

many very important points Centurian-

Trust is paramount to reach the mutual goal. The dog must learn to trust you implicitly. Never ever default on the dog. Always follow through on your unspoken promise to him.

Perhaps I used the word value incorrectly. Value doesn’t necessarily mean ‘reward’ to me. It is an exchange of something...a satisfying each other’s needs = mutual goals.

Rewards do create expectation for more rewards in the dog. True. Again, maybe ‘reward’ is not a good word to us. But it is a convenient word to use to convey a certain meaning when describing this. I understand your points when you point out the use of certain words though.

But in some cases, the rewards, and then intermittent rewards....that eventually can even be stopped completely - lead to a type of automation in the dog..almost ‘as if’ his autonomic nervous system takes over and the action becomes semi automatic; ie almost without the thought of the dog ‘should I or shouldn’t i?” It becomes as automated as scratching an itch. Ideally, we have extinguished any alternative actions that the dog may do instead.

About using an item with more value to trade for the ball:
We all know dogs that are so ball crazed, that the ball is the highest form of prize...they can not be swayed that there is something of more value than a ball. ( add: Also what Valk said, outing a satisfying bite for something better is challenging).
Juno may have in his case, a dog so ball crazy and resource garding, that he will not even give it up for another he wants both. Hence, my suggestion to step back and try with less ‘charged’ items....and making sure that every minute and every interaction is a type of unspoken training. I’m saying and suggesting this without being able to watch and observe the dog in see his motivation.

I don‘t want to call it bribing, even though it looks that way. Instead it is a mutual reaching of goals.

Händler authority comes only with the trust part, as I wrote above. If everything becomes training, authority will follow.

However, having said that, I do see that people in the sports/pp world, who sometimes train other peoples dogs, or that compete with other dogs, do use different methods to reach their goals. And, may not have time to gain the authority role in traditional methods described above. Also trainers that are under time constainst to get results will have this issue. So I have to leave that answer to others that work this way. But if its your dog, you will automatically have authority if you make the dog, fairly, work for everything he wants.

BTW, liked the video you posted on the French bulldog doing IPO. Cute. Might start new trend for small dogs doing ipo for viral vids.

by Centurian on 24 May 2018 - 20:05

Oh My
I read Jesse's post right away . My first thought about the ball .. what could be more important than a ball a bite . Then I read Valk's post... Remarkable ...Valk what is more gratifying than a dog biting .... the opportunity to bite again and another [ more attractve/ mtivating]  bite in and of itself ! So when we teach a dog who is reluctant to come off a decoy .. what do I do : offer another bite on another decoy !

So Valk ..... Yes rewards are very easily transformed into a bribes [ that was my implied point ] ! But what happens , and I state this specifically , when we use such things as , bite items and food , as 'Tools' of communication in such a way that the dog is so motivated to do a behavior and that behavior in essence that YOU want it to do ,  then what merely takes place is that you allow / give permission for the dog to do that behavior ! When I cue , I do not ask ,  but I cue my dog to come to me . I am allowing /giving permission for my dog to come to me. Good teaching also puts Responsibility onto the dog [ another discussion ]. When I cue the dog to out , I am allowing my dog to out . The Relationship , the communication , the teaching in the highest form should lend itself that the dog has such desire to do any taught behavior on it's own volition that we are in a position to allow it to behave , give it permission to behave . I stress , that this cannot be done by rewards . Jesse is correct in her post. about rewards , so forth.

So Valk .... there is a very very big distinction between having Dominance and dominion over the dog . Dominance either within a man or a dog is based on ego . Having Dominion over , is not. The Old SchoolPhilosophy is that you make a dog behave / perform. But I say this : if the dog does not in it's heart want to do something , but you make it do that something, that is not Obedience . What that is ,.. it is Compliance. Compliance and Obedience they are two entirely different things .. When I can get the dog to want to do something , when I get the dog to see the relationship as an US , then it looks forward to my cues , to my direction . Not only that the tables are often turned such that the dog tries to get me to give it the cue so that it can do what it wants.
So back to Juno ... the more motivated the dog , the more intense it's attributes to do some work , then that is so much easy for me to train . Many times I have looked at my puppies at 8 weeks old , ten weeks old and immediately I knew that written on this dogs chest was Ring 1 , Sch3 ... All that I had to do is communicate and teach them to channel their natural abilities via stimulus control and balancing in their behavior. Bite/out come /go away , move / be still .... Not by rewards but through the use of tools to aid in communication .. Not through me being domineering or overbearing . Not physically or verbally dominating the dog , which is so counter to a dog working most efficiently. Becaue we use items , that does not mean they are bribes.. it is the how ,when , why , where the items are used  that define them . Even our voice and our eyes are tools used for communication and teaching.   And yes , they can be bribes too if not utlized peoperly ...

by ValK on 24 May 2018 - 21:05

Jessie, for dogs the meaning "mutual goals" do not exists. problem are that people very often too much  "humanizing" the dog's 
attitude/behavior, projecting it on their own perspectives on this or that subject. thus achieving desirable dog's behavior in exchange 
for something valuable from dog's view and not by subordinate based leadership (unquestionable authority), ones may call whatever 
they wish but in plain lingo it's still a "bribe".

"Händler authority comes only with the trust part, as I wrote above. If everything becomes training, authority will follow."

that's incorrect. you cannot build the house from roof to foundation. to gain dog's trust you need first to establish own status of Master 
in dog's mind.

"may not have time to gain the authority role in traditional methods described above. Also trainers that are under time constainst to get results will have this issue."

that is why i don't like both - owners, who want to have intelligent, practically useful dogs but won't willing to sacrifice own time to reach 
their goals by itself and trainers, who admits such clients and to whom $ sign outshines an actual dog. and that very wrong if someone else but not an owner gain Master status in dog's perception.


b.t.w. i less care about "cuteness" of video. point was that any kind of dog to some degree  can be manipulated to mimic 
intelligent performance. does this make such dog suitable for real life tasks and beside the size, what a difference between s
how line GSDs and french bulldog in video?

by Juno on 24 May 2018 - 22:05

Wow! This is really turning into an interesting thread. Was travelling all day and just decided to check and as Emril Legasse says "BAM!". I will have read through this and have to digest it before I can respond. BTW, the breeder did post a video on youtube of my dog as an 8 week old puppy just before he was shipped. She wanted me to appreciate what I was getting. I will try and post the link, her daughter was the one playing with my dog with a ball. You will get an idea of his possesiveness from this video I hope. BTW, I do have a "no" command that he listens to and he does wait till I give the "ok" command before he goes for the ball that I am dangling over his head. Hope this helps.

by Juno on 24 May 2018 - 22:05

Here is the link to the video


by Jessejones on 25 May 2018 - 02:05

Sorry, can get the editor to work today...

.......(Jessie, for dogs the meaning "mutual goals" do not exists. problem are that people very often too much "humanizing" the dog's
attitude/behavior, projecting it on their own perspectives on this or that subject. thus achieving desirable dog's behavior in exchange
for something valuable from dog's view and not by subordinate based leadership (unquestionable authority), ones may call whatever
they wish but in plain lingo it's still a "bribe".)......

I don‘t quite agree with that. It wouldn't work for me. But I appreciate it might work for you.
Here’s why it doesn’t work for me...
Every organism in the world, whether an amoeba or a dog, or a tree, or a human, has an agenda in life. Has it’s needs.

That agenda, or those needs, must be respected for the organism to thrive.
I don‘t mean respect as in the song R e s p e c t.... but respect meaning like it has to be acknowledged and worked with.

It has nothing to do with humanizing the dog at all.

We have to respect the laws of the nature of the organism that we are dealing with. In other words, I believe if one doesn‘t work WITH the dog, one is not working efficiently, but fighting for control.

One is trying then only to push one’s own agenda through, forcing the dog, with disregard for the dog, the dog will not learn in the same way, will not want to work for you. You may even break parts of his spirit.

If I want the dog to „work“ for me, then I must give the dog something for that work, for that cooporation. We only work for our bosses for pay too. It’s only fair and a dog has an extreme acute radar for fairness. Remember that once the dog complies reliably, you can reduce the incentives. Until eventually you will not need one. Maybe once in a blue moon.

We trade our services and ‘bribe’ behaviors all the time, even with each other... and even if unconsciously. We do it for our family members, our kids, our spouses, our bosses. Nothing wrong with that because it is a win win.

I can pretty much guarantee that all my dogs like working with me. Even once they grow up and I stop reinforcing every one of their decisions with “bribes” all the time. But I am, no question, their authority figur.
Maybe I’ve been lucky with my dogs over the years...could be that My dogs were not monster boneheaded dogs...But my dogs will chase a deer full force at 50 yds or more away from me, and my single shout or whistle will stop them on a dime. Literally their back legs will kick over their fronts to stop at that moment. No remote on and no remote training ever done with them.

Add: I know what you meant with the bulldog IPO video.

The ‘nope’ command (or whatever other word you choose) is a bit different than the ‘NO’ command or cue.
The ‘nope’ is like a buzzer on a game show that tells the dog, ‘NOPE’ that’s not the right answer...BUT please try again!
The dog will figur that our real quickly and try another behavior. When the correct behavior is done, “yes!” ... and the dog gets his whatever...reward. Lol.


by Gustav on 25 May 2018 - 11:05

Centurian, I wholeheartedly agree with your points. I was trying to explain to a client this week the difference( in training) in compliance and obedience. In the beginning of my career, we only trained in compliance, but training has evolved into obedience, imo. It is refreshing to hear your explanations....though I sometimes still resort to compliance training, ( as each dog is different and has different trigger points), working with the dog to achieve a goal by its own effort is always my first goal these days. As such my approach to teaching out always is dictated by the dog and what will give him / her the greater clarity within HIS/HER mindset.

by Centurian on 25 May 2018 - 12:05

Juno .... I word for you :
I fellow owned me a dog . Sohe sends to me a 9 week puppy . Two weeks I give the pup to settle then I throw the ball . He then runs 15 feet from me, stands over the ball , lowers his head and gives me the look , try to take the ball , make my day . There is much more to this story. Anyway , Why did this guy give me this pup. This pup had everything one could expect , so what did this tell me . The dog had no inherent innate retrieve instinct /t rait. He has just the opposite ..He had a High high high possessive instinct and Attitude** . Juno , in a short period of time , I had this dog brining a ball to me and shoving it into my face ! This dog went on to be asked to compete at Bundessiegerprufung ! What I am saying to you Juno ... people see things and don't know who and what the dog is . This dog was IMOp given to me because the person was, and I knew him ,  a very very high end serious national Sch competitor / Regional USA Sch Director and I believe when he saw the lack of the retrieve in the puppy he gave him to me knowing at that time I did Ring Sport [ which also has retrieve requirement] btw.  I am of the impterssion that he also saw the  possessiveness and he turned this dog down as a Sch candidate for himself . This dog also learned to out on a whisper at 30 feet away . So Juno - one will be surpirides what one can do developing the correct optimal relationship with a dog , teaching the dog  to have impulse /self control to work WITH you ! Juno ,  I will tweak a little what you do  : When I want to tell the dog that it is correct I will say to the dog : 'good', When the dog chooses something other than what I want I say " wrong " . If I say  or use the word " No",  that to the dog means not do something now , and not ever ! No is absolute .. don't even think abpout it ! If I want the dog just to ignore something or leave it alone I say " leave it " , which allows the dog to sometimes bother with something and at other timnes not . Therefore if I hold a ball or throw a ball , I don't say 'no' to the dog. That would not be consistent . Sometimes I want the dog to chase it , and sometimes I do not . Rather I would say either ' sit ' [ meaning substitute one behavior for another beahvior for the dog to do ]. Sit is an  is an absolute ,or 'leave it'.] whcich gives the dog to choose something else or move on. But I don't say  ' no' because sometimes I want the dog to chase or bite the ball and sometimes I don't  want him to. Ditto for 'bite' , sometimes we want the dog to bite sometimes we do not.  In creating balance we must communicate what and how to balance such and such to the dog. BTW this does kioll motivation it increases motivation .a bite , that makes him want a ball or a bite even more . just like a person , the more you don't allow someone to have something the more , for a number of reasons , they want it .. the oint also tools can aslo create desire and motivation even when they are not in use !!!!! 

Valk ... In regards to what I just wrote to Juno. When I got that puppy I referred to in my early years , the first thought I would have had is : oh boy , I am going to have to teach this dog the 'forced retrieve' . I never taught this dog to bring to anything me by doing that [ froced retrieve]. As possessive [ and independent , dominant ] as this puppy was ! For the record I was trained and tested to teach forced retrieve. Something that I can do, if I choose to [ BTW you never evdr do a force retrieve on your own dog - explanation foregone]. I was also taught by the best Germans how to train a dog , by  asserting my authority over the dog . But this is not how I preferably trained and the most toughest , meanest , ,baddest dogs . Yes , misuse of instruments can BE a BRIBE. But don't misconstrue a communication device / a tool as being a bribe. For example I can use a leash , a piece of food or both to tell*** the dog : " this is where I want you to be , in this place " . Or if a dog does mnot conteoll himself , then I wpould put a sleeve right in front of his face, laugh at him and walk away . Do you know how many dogs get the idea. Act loike a banna head and you ghet not bite , eal fast unless they are a stupid stupid dog . I don't haveto basng the hell put of them with a leash and collar for not controlling themself. Val - that is executing dominion and not physically havimg to dominate always the dog. There is a Big difference between a communication tool and a bribe ! How do I control a dog and teach : with MY MIND !  I will stress this so it is lead and clear . I teach a dog and control a dog with my MIND . [ or at times simply using my eyes]  Do I at times use a physical cue , a leash and collar ... OH Yes . But that is a kind communication  tool to to cue and not to cause physical pain/punishment . This , not being understood,  lends all to often , to physical abusiveness. All animals , including dogs , are thinking , feeling , emotional creatures. I am supposed to be smarter than the dog .. My preference is to talk to the dog , in a language that it can understand ! And I make myself loud and clear to that dog !!!

I can almost get any person to do what I want it to do [ within reason ] by changing the schemaof that person  , how that person sees and feels about things the way I see things. We deem this 'persuasion' I can change the motivations and thinking of people . And so can we do the like with dogs. Evern dogs highly instinctual and innate in behavior , assuming it is a sound dog !! Dogs do things for their reasons , motivations. So many times this is simple : If I can communicate to the dog and change his mental picture , his motivations , feelings about the way he reaches his goals and align them with mine.... That is to say , younwould not beleive how I can get into that dog's head ** and heart **  . If I can do that then why do I have to be over [ physically ] bearing to the dog. This is akin to me making you do something by holding a gun to your head as opposed to just simply persuading and convincing you that what I ask is in your interest !. How can I Iiken this : the forced tracking method vs motivation tracking. The latter , the dog figures out : if I follow the track then I get to eat my dinner. This is not a bribe. This is a way of life with you and a dog. Both working together with allied motivations and interests. The message to the dog : You perform for your dinner. The dog figures this out lightening fast !! NO FORC, the dog loves to track with proper attitude and joy. .So if possible , why then do we not also teach a dog in like manner , where possible ?. This has nothing to do with humanizing but more so with treating the dog as the animal and creature that it is- a thinking , problem solving , emotional , feeling animal . Yes bribes can be attained by usinf items , but not usage of items are Bribes !!!! That is the crux of the matter !!

by Centurian on 25 May 2018 - 16:05

Sorry, I edited my post for corrections but somehow the text got messed up after hitting send ...

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