Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 16

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by joanro on 06 May 2018 - 21:05

For all we know, the first video, the guy was maybe checking to see if he could get along with the dog to buy him...not trying to 'fix' anything.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 May 2018 - 06:05

Yeah but Duke, what I'm asking is: HOW do you decide that the dog in front of you is one where "not everything can be fixed" and "its better to accept things the way they are" ?

If someone comes to you with a dog that is now biting everybody it sets eyes on, including family & friends/visitors, what do you tell them ?

 

Thank you Centurian - on the genetics point, I accept that once an individual dog is born, we can't seriously talk about changing that genetic make-up; but where I think I disagree with you is the extent to which that genetic picture's expression in the dog's character can subsequently be modified by environment. As an 'overlay', if you like.

 

So maybe you have a dog which has been bred on lines to make it a tough, hard-hitting, 'no nonsense' dog when doing PP work (though generally, hopefully, with a steady character and the Off switch !); or maybe you have a dog bred to continue it's family lines good performance at the hundsports level (IPO, whatever). Or maybe you have just bred an easy-going, laid-back, not too 'drivy', pet, to parade around a Show ring.  That is the basic dog. But any of those 3 can be ruined by stoopid ineffective and inexperienced training / handling.  Any of those 3 can learn that by lashing out at all and sundry it can get what IT wants from life (best spot on the humans' bed, whatever), no matter how dangerous that makes it. So in that sense, it begins to dominate those around it.

Now we have to consider, if asked for help with that dog, what we can  (and should) do, in providing that help. That is where I am seeking to hear peoples' views on how they make decisions, what signs they are looking for in the dog. Does it mean that if you know a dog was bred to be a very 'strong' dog for PP purposes, that you 'know' there is no point in bothering to try to rehabilitate & re-train it ? Or place it in better ownership ? If you think there IS a point in trying to do so, how do you work on the dog to make it 'safe(r)' for that transfer of ownership / re-homing to happen ?

AM GOING TO SUBMIT THIS SO FAR, AS I AM HAVING A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE SITE AND DON'T WANT TO 'LOSE' WHAT I WROTE SO FAR. BACK SOON !


by duke1965 on 07 May 2018 - 06:05

simple hund, read the dog

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 May 2018 - 07:05

So: I am not talking about people thinking they could 'cure' "all" such dogs; I am quite sure there are those which should not have attempts made to rehabilitate them... but I am equally sure each dog deserves its chance at a better, ( and less unnecessarily confrontational ?) life, rather than having someone say "Don't bother, you'll never do it, with X line of dogs; put it/them down."

And how do we work out which is which ? [If, that is, we do not have the paperwork/pedigree. ]

 

It seems to me that some of the signs, eg the vocalisations, will be the same or very similar, whichever 'line' of dog you are dealing with.

It also seems to me that ANY dog, no matter what its genetic breeding, will be exhibiting signs of stress (like those you list, Centurion), in the sort of circumstances where it has become 'at odds' with its regular owner/handler, due to the inappropriate aggression towards all and sundry. It will also surely express initial tension & stress signals when handed to some new person who is undertaking to 'fix' the problems.

Am I wrong about that ?

Some of the other things you list that you need to assess, like the normal everyday temperament of the dog, the time it takes to 're-set' after it has been stimulated into attack, how it behaves in general ... as you say, these are things (like the bite and ownership history) that it very much helps to know, but which take time and obervational research, they are not on the 'instantly visible' list.

I totally agree about the use of the muzzle. I think the dog is reacting as it would do if there was no muzzle, except that it recognizes the muzzle prevents it actually biting. The muzzle is just an irritant. ( Not that I think it really helps to irritate a dog that is already irritable with everyone around it !) But the dangers of approaching this sort of "Can I rehabilitate the dog ?" question WITHOUT using a muzzle are somewhat obvious.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 May 2018 - 07:05

To respond to Duke's intervention: "Simple , Hund, 'read the dog'."

Yes, sure - but how do I know I am 'reading' it correctly ? If someone else comes along e.g. a Mssr Pupier, and says "No you are reading it incorrectly", how does what we see in the dog tell us who is right ?

I may think I can 'read' a dog, after all these years, but seeing dogs in this advanced state of chucking their weight around is not an everyday occurence for me, while it does happen more often than all dog lovers would like to see. I'm sure you'll have gathered that I feel this is mainly due to poor leadership from unsuitable owners.  Take it in the context that I'm talking across all breeds, and in the UK where few dogs are 'trained to bite'. And not all dogs that bite fall into this extreme category. (Neither of those two dogs I wrote about, that had a chomp at my forearms, were totally out of control; they just did not appreciate bounderies and each just took exception to a situation [perhaps over-reacted !] and tried to bite because they could, and were physically free to do so at those times.) Problem-solving, on their part. I won't spell out the details here, but the provocation was fairly innocuous.

 

To return to Centurian's helpful post, my next query is this :

Do you not think that the dog in that first video DID learn (by 'Day 2', when he was being worked with on the field, and Pupier took the muzzle off) that Pupier was no threat to him ?  He does not seem to offer to bite Pupier thereafter (or did I miss a milisecond of tape where he actually turns and has a go ?). Surely this is how rehab. begins - the trainer gets to know the dog, establishes that s/he is no threat BUT also that they have boundaries ... and the dog starts to come around. And obey basic commands. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE DOG IS NOW 'CURED', OR 'SAFE' AROUND EVERYBODY ... just that it is now relating sensibly ('normally') to this individual.

Yes or No ?

 


by duke1965 on 07 May 2018 - 09:05

.dog is not "cured " but very insecure learning that his bluff didnot work with this guy, see it as ronda rousey, who was unbeatable as long as she believed she was unbeatable, till reality hit her.

that the dog is now not trying with this guy doesnot mean he wont try again anywhere, next time he will get his trigger, he will respond same again.

so best thing for dog and owner is to never put him in that position again, not every dog is suitable for picnic and a walk in the park, especially malinois.

as for " reading " a dog, if you are not sure you are  "reading " a dog correct, than stop trying, dogs bodylanguage is pretty clear mostly.

 

same as many people see a dog bite, but cannot see the reason,motivation or trigger why the dog is biting,,bite is bite,

we all know many bitingincidents dont have crap to do with agressive behaviour , but for many people, bite is bite, so agressive,

same as this dogs tries to bite in a muzzle, so it must be a badass Wink Smile


by Gustav on 07 May 2018 - 11:05

I always try to first assess causation of the inappropriate aggression. As Duke said, probably most important tool is reading the dog, also reading the owner/handler, and lastly reading the owner/dog relationship or handling interactions. Unfortunately, the ability to read the dog, ( in terms of inappropriate aggression) is predicated upon experience with not only dogs but in particular these type of dogs. It also helps significantly to have worked dogs in bitework( from decoy and handler position) to thoroughly understand what you are reading from both ends of the leash.

by Centurian on 07 May 2018 - 12:05

Gustav .. I disagree with you , not criticizing you .. I just come from a different background and philosophy from others ... What I often preach is : If you do not understand that dog before you work it ,then one has no business ever doing any work , especially protection work, with that dog .. One feature that I say supports my view is that : the dog always dictates what is or is not done , and  how , when , where and why , some kind of interaction is done with it in the engagement of the working. Rather I take a different road by doing a Formal in depth Evaluation & Temperament Test of the dog that separates the Genetics from the Environment. This is not done in a working interaction , especially a bite work interaction. If this Formal Eval is not possible to do with the dog , then I still attempt to informally access the dog , but with much more than I have written in my response to Hund's last post. I wrote prior and I meant what I wrote , most often in life situations we have but 10 seconds to understand that dog ... I mean what I say , and what I say I mean ... and I hardly , if I can help it , open my mouth when I do not have platform or rational to say something. For me , inappropriate aggression is very very easy to discern . However it is not always so apparent to others not experienced.
BTW , many people do not realize that the dog may seem the same , in different types of aggression but it is not the sanme . However in different aggressions the dog is very very different. To start , where do all behavior comes from , the brain . Consider this : When a dog is in predatory aggression [ prey ] one specific center in the brain is activated by neuro transmitter chemicals to the stimulus. When that same dog is in defensive aggression , an entirely different center of the brain is activated. Right there is the difference of the mental state of the dog , the emotional state of the dog , and  either the autonomic response of the dog or the thinking of the dog which results in the behavior of aggression . So , sometimes aggression may look the same across the board . But the aggression , it is NOT always the same . Normal aggression in a dog  at times can be difficult to delineate from Abormal Aggression at times. 
This is why I talk about ' mentality ' and  'genetics base '  in the GS so much !  I say we have to know from where the context is , what the trigger are , Exactly which  stimuli  create that specific emotional state [s ] within the dog in a specific context . To ad , some arousal and emotional syayes can change so fast , some in a blink of an eye, that for some people it is hard for them to see this occurring within the dog. Hund brings up  an important point when she discusses about 'what to look for'. I would add not just what to se and observe but also what is importsnt and some factors that we don't see, which can be equally as important observing  the dog.  
Gustav ..I don't take away anything of your capabilities and knowledge of the dogs ... I just come form a different background than other people in the dog world.  I don't need personally to work a dog in a protection routine to see that which I need to see in a dog.  But I also aggre as I jave writeen many times , that the woner/handler in  an interaction does play a role.. but they have nothing to do with the innate predetermined genetic base of the dog. They add to our understanding, but they are not the dog.


by Centurian on 07 May 2018 - 16:05

Hund , sorry did not see all your post.
Hund , yes some dogs can learn that you are no threat and therefore you can build trust with the dog.. But for some dogs 'you' is singular and does not automatically transfer to everyone else . Dogs that are sound but insecure because of inappropriate or inadequate socialization can more readily be counter conditioned or behaviorally modified to be more secure with people. That is because the insecurity is more environmentally learned or lack of learning based. In this case you are not changing the genetics of the dog , you are in essence addressing those triggers that create the emotional state in the dog. You can change how and what the feelings , emotions , perceptions .picture the dog has in in it's mind. You can change what the dog will see as being predictable. The dog has a choice as opposed to an autonomic uncontrollable response . Hence the term ' Behavior Modification ' versus a term as , Genetic Reprogramming.

Duke yes ...... But let me say this to the readers. When a person or a dog shows aggression or anger that is because there exists a problem . The anger or aggression is a solution to that problem . Now not all aggression is bad or faulty , for some aggression can be normal, healthy and good . Not all bites are bad , a dog must bite to eat , a dog must bite to protect you and itself from harm. Such as a dog aggressing because some one intrudes on your property . Feelings create thoughts and thoughts create action. As I wrote , you want a dog to solve a problem by the aproprite means , for the appropriate reasons with the feeling of well being .

 

     Once a dog had been re homed . A lovable golden Retriever. All the testing supposedly showed this as a super mannered dog , a gooid dog fro hime and family. After being in the house adjusted   for some time, the kids played with him . No problem ,  then one day the boy got the dog in a in a encompassing hug with his hands wrapped all around the dogs head and shoulders. The dog turned and bit him . Was this an Unsound dog ??  No ......  To address a point by Duke : What had happened in his past is that his prior owner severely dominated this dog and abused this dog by headlocking and pinning the dog to the floor and manuevering the dog because he learned to do that so called alpha roll on the dog pinning bit . . In the dog's schema , the boy seemed to the dog to be doing the same thing by  getting totally encompassed and hugged. .  He was back to this problem state and that was a trigger to the dog. NOT the boy ..This  enagement was to the dog the same thing in essence and THAT created the same feelings in  the dog .... So .. this dog was not unsound but a sound dog thunking he was in danger again !!  This dog saw himself in an old familiar threatening abusive situation and he responded. So ... maybe this story sheds a little light on what Duke has just posted .. identifying the triggers and the why of the bite .. what is going on in the dog's brain and head !! Not all dogs that bite are bad as*** .  But this is  the immdeiate view by many people ! 


by joanro on 07 May 2018 - 17:05

As to triggers....watch the decoy's left hand as he extends it towards the dog's face...he is moving in a typical fashion to incite 'civil' bite, discretely for the uninitiated, but obvious to those who has been 'around' this type stuff.
There are other instances where the dog is 'incited' to react with desire to bite. Eyeball fkg the dog is another way the dog is 'triggered'.





 


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