Don't tell me what I want to hear: But what can I learn from behavior? - Page 5

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TITO VOM FINKENSCHLAG IPO3 KKL V9 BSZS 2017, VA2 B
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by beetree on 13 December 2017 - 18:12

Centurian, for the record... what I wrote is entirely true. You, on the otherhand contradict yourself all the time. It is just couched within verbosity and a chore of my time that I am not going to waste going through. Also, It is disingenuous to use a name of a poster and then excuse yourself from any attempt addressing said poster with an honest reply .

If others such as Valk and Sunny think you've written something other than average, so be it.

@Hundmutter. Yes, your posts are spot on and succinct to boot.

by Centurian on 13 December 2017 - 20:12

Sunsilver ... I understand what you say and why ....... Bear with me if you will. I use what you wrote to express ideas for the readers.

Step outside of what you learned. For it is not entirely correct/incorrect.. but somthing is lacking [ I wrote about this before ]. For the record I was taught and learned exactly in those words , word for word and terminology that you have written . But please bear with me for explanation >

" let the dog win " ___ Teaching a dog foundation ... that literally and abstractly means that there is a challenge , a struggle , a 'fight' as they three are entirely different - related, but different. The dog can be made to feel any one of those three , or other emotions .
So I will liken this to what I taught my staff . ' When anyone was on the telephone, I required that always they smile as they were talking. Any professional consulting firm will teach this.. this is fact . Because when you smile you project yourself , in your speech , the tone , pitch , the emotion etc etc. Same with a dog... if you are going to teach , and I did not say agitate, I stated teach a foundation skill to a dog if you think 'win/lose' then you will put over to the dog just that. A challenge , a struggle and so forth. The same way a smile and your emotion gets transferred ove a teleophone call. If I want to teach 'bite full' then I set up the dog to bite full , or show the dog full bite, i.e readjust the bite , to communicate what I want and what builds success. Using a learned skill correctly that allows the dog to reach it's goal builds success . If the dogs isn't going to bite full after teaching , then the dog simly will not get the bite. That does ot mean the dog loses , it means the dog failed to reach a goal and it better do better next time. If I taught a fast entry and the dog does not enter fast.. it doesn't get the bite. The dog learns real fast what failure prevents it from it's goal and what brings it to it's goal , ie the bite. There is no win /lose involved . Either the dog is successful or not , in it's skill. This is not semantics. I stress this point , This is not semantics . Because what goes on in the dogs mind and it's emotions are entirely different . And when i work foundation my emotion never ever gets projected . If I think win/lose even the expression on my face will be impartd to the dog. The breathing , my gestures so sublte that I may not even be aware of. The young dog never ever thinks it enters a challenge , a struggle and can ever possibly lose ! it may not have reached it's goal , but that has nothing to do with me , has nothing to do with me projecting to the dog that i am victor and that it ost a struggle. One may think this is semantics. but the same as the situation of talking on the phone. Notice , no word prey or defense has entered this ... Simply teach a lesson to the dog such that it develops skill without anything to be concerned about.
Success builds confidence . Then when a dog is confident ,theoretically , it never ever thinks it will be defeated because I never created that thought or picture . Then slowly ..very very very slowly and little by little , the challenge starts when the dog is mentally , emotionally , physically and learned enough in skill to undertake the challenge .
Now ...... defending .... when the foundation is completed and when the learning is at it should be... No -defending does not have to be because of unsureness , insecurity , fear within the dog . Not at all . What should take place when the dog defends , when it fights it should be fearless, secure, comfortable , assured etc. And if you think about this even a person is stupid if it enters a fight that it doesn't think it can win .. aside from the notion that the person has absolutely no other choice if it wants to survive. Meaning a well trained dog will defend because it thinks that it is in control , has the upper hand , that you will be taking care of /controlled. The dog sees a problem and it is going to solve the proelm using his skills. Confidence to over come anything in life is built on skill and success. people overcome fears by gaining skill and experience. Does this happen always . NO , absolutely not and mostly because of poor training. Also the dog learns in foundation form confrontation then that is what then dog expects - a win/lose confrontation, which at the begining can create something to be concerned or worried about. . Can dogs fight because they have anxiety absolutely , stress , fear , anxiety - absolutely . But because a dog fights we cannot automatically conclude that the dog is concerned [ in the sense it will get hurt ]
It may have a concern such as I am ging to guard and protect my property that belongs to me and my family . But that is a different use of the word 'concern' and not concern meaning the mental , emotinal state of uneasiness within the dog . That defending is in essence the dog going on the offense and the use of the word defense gets distorted. The dog is controlling not truly defending itself. . This is a wrong notion that dogs always defend and defense is based in fear . Can be certain types of defending be fear based , of course. However if you a dog guards it property ready to make combat, , that interaction can be out of the dog being utmost confident in offense. Again this is why I over and over write about cliches and poor linguistics. This is not limmitted to a dog defending a yard. Other contexts can have the same principle.
So we have to be careful, really careful , that the words we use preciely and accurately convey what we mean.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 December 2017 - 06:12

Wink Smile

aaykay

by aaykay on 15 December 2017 - 13:12

Beetree:

My Beau is seven years younger than Mojo. He always hackled easily in play and still does but not to the same degree when he was a young pupper. Mojo rarely hackles. And never in play. 

I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I think Beau hackles because (in his mind) there is an amount of seriousness in his "play" with Mojo.  There is probably a subliminal rank issue going on in his mind, when he "plays" with Mojo (the older dog), which may never come to the fore (resulting in a serious/real attack with real injuries) but is nevertheless still present.  


by beetree on 15 December 2017 - 17:12

@Aaykay

At this point in my dogs respective lives, I do see Beau asserting himself with respect to rank.
Since he has always been easy to hackle in excitement, even charging at those offending ravens who dare land in his trees he could just be a serious type of dog, lol.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 15 December 2017 - 19:12

This whole topic is pointless
Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 15 December 2017 - 20:12

Bee's Beau isn't a GSD, so I wouldn't hold him to GSD standards. My APBT hackles when I make his favorite food, when he chases a ball, etc...it's not a huge deal.

susie

by susie on 15 December 2017 - 21:12

For me "hackling" in itself only shows a not controllable reaction of the nerve system.
Possible triggers: Excitement, anger, fear, dominance behavior, aggression, insecurity...

That said you need to find out why it happens at that special moment, not always that easy, because behavior is the sum of genetic traits, environmental influence, and education/training ( not to forget health--when one of my males got leg problems he didn't quit running and chasing, but his hackles went up because it hurt - the conflict between drive and pain ).

Bee- underlaying dominace may really be a good explanation in your case, but for sure in this case it doesn't affect the quality of the dog.

Glock, the OP, would need to answer a lot of questions, otherwise at least for me it's impossible to understand his female's behavior.

First of all I'd like to know how she behaves around the neighbour when she is outside; how she reacts when a stranger walks up the driveway; and so on...

Personally I never met a strong, confident, aggressive dog in a civil situation with "hackles up", but that's just me.

Glock, are you sure you never met Mithuna??? 😀

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 15 December 2017 - 21:12

Agree with Susie on the strong, confident,agressive dogs not hackling up *at people.* At other dogs, yes.
susie

by susie on 15 December 2017 - 22:12

Yes, you simply can't compare it.

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