Are civil dogs often hardheaded and unsuitable for Law enforcement? - Page 8

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susie

by susie on 04 December 2017 - 19:12

In my opinion "hardheaded" is not connected to "civil" at all, 2 genetic traits, they may happen together, and they may happen isolated from each other ( yes, NeinNein, the purple monkeys, although I always thought it ´s about angels, not about monkeys ...) But "NeinNein" is a double negotiation, that said it may mean "yes"...At least you care about evolution and science, although to the same time you are a fan of David Carradine and sitcoms of the late 70s ... born in the sixties???
You think "intellectuals" are the better dog trainers? I made totally different experiences. The best dog trainers I remember have been the intuitive ones, most of them not "educated" at all, most often not even able to explain why they did what they did at that special moment, but they had the most success. On the other hand the "intellectuals", able to discuss every problem for hours, but not able to transfer their theories into successful real life dog training...

Education and intellect won´t help in case there is no "genetic" instinct for animal behavior...you can read for years, it won´t help.

But back on topic: Is a "hardheaded, civil dog" useless for Law Enforcement?

Maybe, out of 3 reasons:

1. The new handler/police officer has no clue how to handle such a dog ( Anybody ever tried to handle an unknown, adult, civil dog ? Timeframe none, only fast results count, time is money )
2. A mainly "civil" dog, be it hartheaded or not, in a lot of scenarios certainly is not the perfect prospect for dual purpose ( dual purpose = less money spent )
3. Prey driven dogs are easier to train, there is faster success, and they "function", too ( The overwhelming majority of Law Enforcement dogs is trained on prey base for at least 2 decades now )

What makes me wonder is the discussion about "civil" Mals - they are out there, but as far as i know even in KNPV most dogs are trained in prey nowadays ( easier, faster, more effective ) ...we tend to call Mals "Maligators" because of their ridiculous preydrive, not because they are hartheaded or civil ... ( and at least in my area they are well known for thin nerves ). Guess, I met the wrong specimen.
yogidog

by yogidog on 04 December 2017 - 21:12

At last a bit of sense Susie really like the end of your post about the mals. Also like the part about education

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 04 December 2017 - 22:12

I agree, a lot of stuff with animals has to be learned from experience.

I grew up around farm dogs, and learned from a young age to 'read' when a dog was safe to pet. Not all of the farm dogs were safe around strangers!

When Monty Robert's book the Horse Whisperer came out, I was somewhat surprised I'd learned a lot of the stuff that was in the book just from my own experience with horses - lunging them, mucking their stalls, etc.

Yet some people just don't know how to read animals. Had a guy and his dog come into the kennel, and as I was taking the owner's info, I saw the dog sniffing the reception desk. I told him, "Don't you DARE pee on my desk!" "Oh, he woudn't do THAT!" said his owner.

Ten seconds later, up came the dog's leg... Roll eyes

Seriously. You've owned a dog for how many years, and you can't tell when it's about to scent mark? Thinking What planet have you been living on??

(Books do help, though!)

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 December 2017 - 07:12

Wise words, Sunsilver. Unfortunately not only are there lots of people who have animals but cannot 'read' them, but there seem to be some people who insist on participating in the 'bite sports' who fall into that category. I really worry that this is damaging longterm, to the sports, to the dogs, to breeds. Such owners may not reach the dizzy heights, as its unlikely their dogs will get into the highest scores; but when they exit, their dogs go into the wider canine population. And their behaviour may have been ruined, with all sorts of potential consequences.

by duke1965 on 05 December 2017 - 07:12

agree 100% with post of yogidog /LOL/ susie, about the malis and yes KNPV mostly trains in prey, I placed some good civil pedigree dogs in KNPV and they are loved by some, disliked by mostWink Smile

 

 

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 05 December 2017 - 13:12

 


for the 1000,s time all bite exercises in Schutzhund,KNPV ,Ringsport,PSA are prey exercises. The only serious courage test is the KNPV stick attack IMO


Not saying that all mals/DS are automatic prey monsters in the real badguy world here we need some hardness ,FIGHT ,courage,and nerves from steel. 


The different is KNPV need dogs for the real world( and breeders select their bloodlines on it) not only for  flashy sport exercises  what most IPO dogs are, because most KNPV dogs go to police/military departmensts and most IPO dogs stay in the same kennel and if they lucky they can have a nice carriere in the sport world until 7 years old doing the same exercises 10000,s time over and over

 

KNPV have also some real life exercises competitions outside their own standard program testing if the dog has it or NOT

We can discuss about civil dogs but 99 pecent also from police dogs attacks are in PREY just saying,

 

Enneh  most GSD by far today I see are  prey driven dogs, give me 10 names from that famous GSD kennels who breed on  specific civil dogs...........with examples I,m waiting for it  LOL  
 

Enneh  the most important skills wat police dogs  departments need is not bite work but is detection and tracking and social dogs I  bet 80 percent today or even more...Wink Smile

 


by apple on 05 December 2017 - 13:12

Duke,
Again, we get into dog terms, such as civil. I am reading that as defensive. The dogs you placed in KNPV could have been dogs with strong, confident civil aggression, but most KNPV trainers want their dogs working in fight and not defense, because defense has the element of flight. And dogs with high fighting instincts typically have very high prey drive. They want a dog who works in fight who is not stressed and if the decoys kicks the fight up, the dog kicks the fight up and is not stressed. Maybe a dog that gets angry, but not stressed. The other thing about prey in KNPV among the Mals and DS's, it is a much more intense type of prey typically found in GSDs. It isn't play/prey, but a serious, strong prey. Some of those dogs have non classical prey drive where they actually see the man as prey and not a part of him or the equipment. That is a rare trait because domesticated, socialized dogs typically don't see humans as prey. It is a different gene pool. And KNPV is so far removed from the SV and it political motives, that effects many aspects of the sport. The SV and SchH USA are about inclusion and getting all the soccer moms, etc. involved in the breed. Their money is in the show dogs and it is about money. In KNPV, there are no papers for the really good dogs, so no one can tell them how to breed.

by duke1965 on 05 December 2017 - 17:12

apple, disagree with quite a bit you say,can say this a hundred times, your argument of flight is BS,

a civil dog without courage is equally bad as a prey motivated dog without courage, seen lots of prey driven dogs without courage, not pretty, then also you will get the trained behaviour issue with prey, a dog has to see something as prey to engage, saw a video recently of a policedog send on a guy in a boxershort only, lots of confusion, no bite, the downside of trained behaviour,

here is one that came back from KNPV for being to civil, would come of the suit to attack third man approaching to uncontrolled, now a USA policedog, type of dog I love

https://youtu.be/fYCJy1sNF2s

this one is in KNPV, will be titled, supersocial for its own, not for strangers, mostly referred to as that civil shitdog LOL, loved by his trainer/owner Willem Gepken

https://youtu.be/SvyRkQP6fE8

 

 

by duke1965 on 05 December 2017 - 18:12

come to realise that these two are hardheaded and civil and both very suitable for LE, a bit less desirable for sport :)

by Glock on 05 December 2017 - 18:12

Thank you apple you keep nailing it
Duke I have seen Rudie Pegge line bred progeny just like Gro in your vid


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