Are civil dogs often hardheaded and unsuitable for Law enforcement? - Page 10

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 06 December 2017 - 08:12

Yogi, you seriously have no clue. Have a nice day. Push someone elses buttons. This forum will never change.

And with this, Bye Felicia!

yogidog

by yogidog on 06 December 2017 - 09:12

Be, nó offence ment by what I said it just my opinion I did not say anything nasty. I taught this was a discussion about civil dogs. And you posted a video which I disagreed with. And I certainly don't go out of my way to push buttons.

by duke1965 on 06 December 2017 - 09:12

think yogi is right BE, and dont think he is in it to be nasty, he is only giving his opinon
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 December 2017 - 10:12

 


Not impresed all this videos here all are conditioning work,see no any real agression or any real civil work  and most of all PREY.......


Duke is working and breeding with malinois now the guy who is always is critical about malinois LOL


I,m out of here some people don,t get it or don,t understand what real civil is. with any suprise............wasting my time

 

 

by duke1965 on 06 December 2017 - 11:12

LOL @ BM

by apple on 06 December 2017 - 12:12

Duke,
The Mals you posted look nice and don't look like defensive/sharp/ reactive dogs to me. They look to be very prey driven and I have no doubt they will bite for real. So I believe a dog can be civil and be working in prey, and of course, drives overlap.They are the type of dog I am talking about that the Dutch prefer and are working in fight and not defense. I couldn't see the video of BE to comment. If it was Athos, I thought the earlier videos showed him as a nice dog. Not as driven as the Mals Duke posted, but he is not a Mal. Athos seemed confident and commtted to the bite. Different dogs and breeds with different drive packages.

by Gustav on 06 December 2017 - 12:12

What is definition of insanity??? That why I see no value arguing this, those who train dogs for enduse in terms discussed usually understand subject matter. I agree that balance is very important, and I also agree that channeling drives is good, but I also agree that prey without real fight is useless in work and IS not balanced; as is too much defense with little prey. To me the ideal GS has to have the ability to go from play to serious! A dog that is so defensive that he cannot work without everything being a threat, is just as useless as a dog that is so prey driven that it’s obsession with sleeve prevents it from recognizing a threat, I have seen too many GS recently with very high prey, that when asked to deal with heights, surfaces, water, escalators,tight spaces, dark buildings, etc and that prey becomes so reduced that the dog is ineffective. Again we need balance! The dog has to have that overwhelming confidence to handle a situation in drive and out of drive. A civil dog needs to have that “ it” whether it is high prey or high defense, and as the pro title people always say( which I agree) if your training doesn’t test for it you start losing it.

by apple on 06 December 2017 - 13:12

I think part of what you are saying goes back to some things you have written before. Obviously, Mals have a much higher level of prey drive usually than GSDs and they have a nerve base that can tolerate that level of drive (in the good ones.) Selecting for too high of prey in the GSD, or a lack of balance is likely to result in nerve issues because they don't have the nerve base to handle the high level of prey being selected for in breedings. Selecting for extreme prey in the GSD for IPO might work because there is not much testing for nerve issues, but leads to issues with real work. It is kind of ironic in GDSs, high prey if correlated with high fight, but high prey in a GSD is different than high prey in a Mal.

by duke1965 on 06 December 2017 - 14:12

apple, the test videos dont show conflict situations,

and naturally, civil dogs are not idiots, the problems they faced with Gro for example is that the third man in KNPV couldnot grab him by the collar to reposition on the suit, but the dog is absolutely social for his own and a great policedog as we speak,

the young one is same, will bite for real and is super for owner and his wife, but not overly social to strangers, cannot be taken out of the car or kennel by just everybody.

 

by apple on 06 December 2017 - 14:12

Sounds like social aggression to me. I have said before, I think the Dutch have done a much better job of preserving the traits in their unregistered Mals and DS's. In Germany and the US, true social aggression is often looked at as a temperament fault. Consider the BH and the dog being required to sit in a crowd. It is not as much an issue of getting a dog with true social aggression to pass the exercise as it is the mindset that the SV/schH USA doesn't want dogs with social aggression. Holland is a small country with a different culture when it comes to working dogs. IMO, social aggression in GDS's is rare. Some people call GSDs that are overly defensive socially aggressive, but I think they are usually incorrect and social aggression has nothing to do with defensive aggression, which is the value of it. It is also a pain to deal with because such dogs cannot be around people unsupervised and have to be under obedience control or they will bite anyone outside their pack simply because they are not pack members.


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