Watered Down sport?? - Page 13

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 June 2017 - 06:06

There you go again, Duke, talking about LE dogs in YOUR part of the world as though that applies to the WHOLE world's experience ...

by duke1965 on 06 June 2017 - 07:06

hundmutter, the worldwide LE world is a small world for the inside people, most dogs in the whole world are supplied from central and western europe,

most K9 vendors and suppliers are in contact with each other, but you dont have to believe me, keep on thinking the pedigree top IPO dogs provide the majority of LE dogs


by hexe on 06 June 2017 - 09:06

The top IPO dogs aren't showing up in the pedigrees of the majority of LE dogs for much the same reason that there's fewer GSDs being used for that purpose in many places--because it's far less expensive to use Mals or Dutchies.

When people are pricing registered GSD pups from parents with no health clearances, no breed evaluations, no working certifications of any sort [hint: a CGC is not an indication of breed worthiness, and I'd be embarrassed to include that on a pedigree of any dog I'd consider using for breeding--it's like seeing your heart surgeon listing that he'd passed kindergarten on his resumé] at USD$1000.00 and up, the market has gotten out of hand.

I see ads for 3 or 4 year old intact bitches with no credentials to their names save for the fact that there's a titled dog or two in her parents' pedigrees, and with no training beyond basic house manners, being advertised as a 'great breeding prospect' with asking prices of USD$1500-2500.00...and I feel bad for these dogs, because they're probably really nice pets but they have no business being sold for anything beyond that. 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 06 June 2017 - 10:06

Second, all training to certify is under the guidelines of state Attorney General office, which mandates length of training and scope of training. This includes all surfaces indoor and outdoor, slippery floors, grated floors, grilled floors, escalators, elevators, helicopter, training on large boats and ships, riding in boats on water, heights, rubble, large dark empty buildings, tracking on grass, dirt, cement, asphalt, bites in muzzles, suits, sleeves, hidden sleeves, in water, up high, in crawl spaces.
You would be astonished how often launching GS from off sport field only trained on grass Get washed out of academy because once they have to perform in many of these situations they wilt. Or, they may overcome the obstacle but they go down in drive so much they are no longer effective. You'd be surprised how many dogs are different when confronted with new place, new scenario, pitch black at night, etc. It is so easy to spot someone who really doesn't understand the training that LE depts go through on East/West coast. With the terror situation, the bar has increased even more in last twenty years. Yet, folks think of LE dogs as the type in Mayberry.....sure there are rural areas that may have six week training( I sincerely hope not) but that isn't close to reflection of training dogs go through these days

And this is why environmental confidence is so important to me. 

Living the military life and having access to certain training sites with simply a recreational pass, I get to see my dogs in a lot of different situations minus the Helicopter. Now that being said, I haven't done an Escalator in a while because it's simply too dangerous. When I went rapelling with my old bitch, she did show nerve the first time she did it and sat on my lap. She didn't freak out, nor did she go down in drive. We've trained in rubble, in Disaster Training Centers and I have a lot of other training sites available to me to test the dogs.

We've done bites in darkness, closets, passive bites on firehose wrap, he's gone over grates floors, grilled floors, over grated bridges with running water underneath, over a grilled maybe 1 ft wide pass without any security on left or right, over running water. First time he ever rode in an elevator it was one with a glass bottom.

Gun fire, Canon fire, low flying jets, heights, crawl spaces, dark spaces, moving underground, boats, boats on water (done it once, no issues either) and soon he'll even go on his first flight with me.

I've had him on a rapelling harness once and we pulled him up on it and he had no issues dangling above ground with feet of the ground. Of course I'm physically not fit enough to go rapelling with him but I doubt I'll have much issues.

Luckily our helper is a helper that trains with a lot of Police Dogs and also learned from Dutch KNPV Handlers. Luckily SAR (when you are serious about it) requires the very same type of dog.

Back then, when IPO dogs washed they went to the police, now what happens is that they say "Well, he could still do RH."

NO! Just NO! SAR requrires an enormous amount of hunt drive, if it's not there, it's not there and the dog doesn't cut it. It requires a serious amount of environmental confidence and mental stamina. The dog has to be capable to work through stress, heat, environmental factors and has to go for days at a time.

Just this weekend I was in VA at a workshop with the Dutch team. Only was there for Saturday but got to talk and see other dogs, got to pull out my own but it was good to see whats out there. 

Anyhow, Temperament and Confidence... should come first. Drive is a no brainer...

 

When you are serious about SAR, they have to be capable of many of the same things so I'm testing for it. More so than a lot of others because of how I grew up. We've always tested and when the German Police tested the dogs and they showed any insecurity on a slippery and shiny floor, the dog was instantly washed and never even moved onto the next level.


by Gustav on 06 June 2017 - 11:06

Good post, BE!
I see things the same way!

Cutaway

by Cutaway on 06 June 2017 - 18:06


by duke1965 on 06 June 2017 - 18:06

Hexe, plenty of GSD are used but most non pedigree breeding or pedigree from certain lines, multiple departments and places take GSD only


Cutaway

by Cutaway on 06 June 2017 - 18:06

....it's the environmental issues that our breed has really gotten weak in.

This is something i have not considered, thank you for brining something new (to me at least) to ponder on. I am now realizing that i thought everyone/most people trained in multiple environments, i know those you mentioned in your last post do as they (along with others in the southwest) are some of the ones who stressed the importance of environmental exposure to me.

I do have a negative biasing against most breeders here in the US that do not use IPO proven dogs exclusively in their breeding and say "titles don't mean anything because IPO is watered down" or "the grandparents were titled to IPO 1". I get that a large number of titles for certain kennels are 'bought' titles, its obvious when you look in the score book at who the judge was esp when the dog was sent over seas to get its BH - IPO3 in just 6 months. We all have our idea of what a 'good' dog is and for most i believe that our definitions may not exactly match but they do overlap in key areas, and for me, with out a Working (IPO | Ring | German Hearding) title along with health certs and DNA, i just wont consider it a breeding prospect. And if we miss out on a good dog, so be it, there are enough in the pool to make up for it.


susie

by susie on 06 June 2017 - 21:06

"... keep on thinking the pedigree top IPO dogs provide the majority of LE dogs..."

No, they don´t provide "the majority of LE dogs" any more, they became way to expensive for police due to international sales to sport enthusiasts, breeders, and plain crazy people around the whole world.

It´s a lot cheaper to breed dogs out of untitled/unpapered parents - no stud certificates, no breed warden, no club fees, just a minor stud fee ( if not the own male ), no time and money for all the titles needed prior to breeding within IPO rules, no problems with missing teeth, size, color, coat...and the more East you go, the cheaper even the "necessary costs" like food, taxes, followed by no or minor animal controls, no or minor animal laws at all.

When someone invested € 2000 + in a good green dog with good pedigrees ( buying, raising, and training within "sport world" ) he won´t sell this dog to police, he will loose money, and for any broker those dogs are uninteresting, simply because they are too expensive.

American/Asian "enthusiasts" are willing to pay double/triple the amount...and thanks to modern world it´s not difficult to find them.

On the other hand when someone "invested" € 800 ( no pedigrees, no rules to follow ) he may be fine with € 2000, and he will "raise and train" according to the tests of the brokers, not according to IPO rules - he will make his money.

Friends told me even the Netherlands do have problems to recruit enough police dogs within their own country ( pedigrees or not ), because in the clubs, and at the day of the trials there is a "sell out" not to Dutch police any longer, but to English speaking brokers...

I guess the European "East" is the way to go for police for the next years, not because the dogs are better ( maybe they are, I don´t know ), but just because they are affordable.

by Bavarian Wagon on 06 June 2017 - 21:06

Yes susie...even in the United States, if we have a sport "washout" the independent police dog trainers in the area are offering at most $3000-$4000 depending on the current biting abilities of the dog. They can purchase "green" dogs from Europe for $3000 or less all day long, or even titled/trained genetically faulty dogs which won't meet breeding standards due to missing teeth/testicles/pedigrees for even less since those dogs only have demand from that single market. In the United States it makes the prospect of keeping back dogs for training almost worthless because no matter what you're going to invest more time/money into a dog by a year old than you could ever hope to make back. Even with German puppies running less from the breeder, by the time import taxes and shipping is paid, you're almost at the same price point and again it makes zero financial sense to raise and sell those dogs into that working venue.

The margins are just too small for most trainers to be paying thousands more for a dog just because it's a particular breed. There are for sure departments that request a certain breed, in which case they know they have to pay a premium.





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top