USCA Sieger Show - Page 12

Forgive me for posting on this thread because I surely am not qualified to be part of this discussion. But this thread has been very interesting to me and very educational.
I am a novice German Shepherd owner who had a taste of SV and Sieger shows back in the nineties. I recently got a new German Shepherd puppy who is now 21 weeks old. There seem to be a lot of quality dogs in his pedigree however the nearest two generations don't have the the working or show titles the rest does.
Being the biased owner that I am I believe he has potential in working and maybe even show. So I plan to follow up on that and I found a local club to work with. Of course the club is 90% working only but very receptive.
So my question is this. How can I, in my small way, be a part of the solution and not part of the problem?
Again, forgive me if my question is out of place.

Yes Susie, the market in Germany is decidedly different. The customers are much more knowledgeable and the puppy value is determined by both sides…price too high, no one is going to buy, price too low, you’ll lose profit margin. In the states…there’s rarely a “too high” because SOMEONE will buy the puppy, then you can discount incrementally until all are sold.

You’ve also been apart of many discussions on this board…there is no need to prove the stock. Short training videos is all it takes to prove “performance.” High scoring dogs are attacked and devalued by those who are competing with those dogs for stud fees and puppy sales…and there are way more of those breeders than those that have proven dogs. When the mob goes at it…it’s easy to understand why new people fall for those unproven dogs.

You’re right that high placements and good performance is what makes money for breeders in Europe. Here, it does nothing, and that’s why the trials and shows are so under attended.

Andors…you’re not part of the problem unless you breed your dog without testing it, training it, titling it, and showing it. There is nothing wrong with training your dog and enjoying your journey through titling. Learn what you can, don’t have your heart set on breeding the dog just because he’s your dog. Stay objective and learn to understand the faults your dog has and also faults that other dogs have. Don’t breed it based on the “potential” you believe it has. Prove that potential, and then see where it takes you.

"..you’re not part of the problem unless you breed your dog without testing it, training it, titling it, and showing it. There is nothing wrong with training your dog and enjoying your journey through titling. Learn what you can, don’t have your heart set on breeding the dog just because he’s your dog. Stay objective and learn to understand the faults your dog has and also faults that other dogs have. Don’t breed it based on the “potential” you believe it has. Prove that potential, and then see where it takes you."

Truth.

@AndorsHuman:
let me add my voice to what Bav and Vk4 have said to you ^^^. You may
say: "I've not even thought about breeding" ... but just in case you do, and for all the others, like you, who are reading these posts and wondering whether to join the conversation, remember that both in the USA, and in Europe, and thoughout the whole world in general, there are a very great number of GSDs being bred. The vast majority of those dogs are being brought into this world with little or no knowledge, or care, or forethought about just WHY they are being caused to exist, except money.

Most of those puppies run the real risk of falling into the hands of people who do not know or care about the breed or what it was created for; and whenever they do so, they run the additional risks of ending up in shelters or, worse, dead, before they are more than a couple of years of age.

So if you like and admire the German Shepherd Dog, PLEASE think carefully about that, and about what you have read over the course of this thred; and about whether you want to prove this is a great breed of dog and wish to cherish it, ... or instead, to wind up being part of the problem.

This has to be one of the most enlightening
discussions I have ever been a part of on our breed.
I thank you all for your generosity in sharing this information, and not least engaging in a civil discussion which in itself is monumental on a forum such as this.

Susie, thank you for your candid explanation of how the value works in Germany. I guess being that you have access to the best of the breed does make it more difficult for most other dogs that are bred regarding value in Germany.

My question is though, does that constant breeding on just the top VA BSZS and BSP dogs narrow the gene pool? I mean for the longest time, 90% of the showlines bred was always of maybe top ten dogs.
Additionally,
I have to wonder how many potential VA dogs are untrained, unshown and sitting on someone's couch.

Thank you Hundmitter and Bavarian Wagon
as well for your detailed thoughts.
Yes, breeding is a very serious matter. There are far too many dogs needing homes here In the U.S.
You'd better have something really special to contribute to the breed to consider doing it on BOTH sides.

GSD911,

The perception that 90% breed only to the VA dogs is a little generalized. Here are a few things I'll share to expand the perception.

Bear in mind the sieger show VA group is mixed with representatives of the bloodlines that are proving themselves to be the top producers. There are usually no more than two males in the VA group from one male to ensure there is diversity in the group.

I think the perception would be more accurate if you were to say 90% of the dogs bred make the VA group. Take a look at what it takes, the progression to become VA. Top 25 in the youth classes gets you a seat at the table. From there the breeders choose the males they think are best and use them. The offspring from the young males are shown and the quality and quantity become apparent over the next two years. As the younger dogs prove themselves they typically move to a high V placement at the sieger show until the progeny group reaches the quality where the judge feels the male has reached VA status. By the time this occurs the breeders are no longer breeding to the VA males. They are back making the next generation of VA dogs by breeding to their better offspring.

Breeders in the US that breed in Germany do typically go for the proven VA males. You have to look at what's happening, the pattern in Germany to see the process.

Behind the scenes there's another process going on. The support of the males that want to make the run for the VA. The stud owner/manager has 90 chances to get litters. Not every female that wants to breed to a top young male automatically get the breeding. The owners are selective, they want and need the best and right females to compliment their male. There's a selection process. There's usually a commitment too. A commitment to keep, train, and show something from the litter. This contributes to the group, supports the system and is how the breed moves forward each generation.

Be good if there was a working title based on what line, m or f, has produced the most working titled progeny competing at a high level....or something.

Thank you. My goal with Andor is purely to see him reach his potential as a family companion, protector, and all-around great dog.
If I ever develop an interest in breeding it would be with the help of a mentor that truly knows what they are doing.
Again thank you for your advice, I truly respect the knowledge shared in this thread.

Very accurate description of the German "show circuit", Dog1.

GSD, there is no need to "wonder about potential VA dogs sitting on someone´s couch" - not trained, not shown = no comparison possible...a lot of dogs look good as long as they sit on a couch...

Narrowing the genepool - it´s the responsibility of the show judges to select the best young dogs out of different lines, they always try to introduce "alternative" dogs ( doesn´t always work, after all it´s the resonsibility of the breeder to think about the 2. and 3. generation...).

VK, besides daily experience in the local clubs the progeny groups are able to give you a very informative insight not only about conformation, but about the % of titled dogs, too, ( plus a lot of statistics ), and if interested, you are able to see the dogs during training, not only for the trials, but even for the Siegershows.

Although there is tuff competition people have to work together - IPO training, ringtraining - that said it´s pretty difficult to "hide" a dog, phones are ringing as soon as something special happens ( be it good or bad ).

We are talking about SLs now, but there is no difference within the working lines - people train together, the best trainers tend to talk together, the best decoys tend to train a lot of different dogs, promising young dogs are used for breeding, not only the winners - local and regional participants are able to become famous not because of points, but because of temperament.

You are able to "follow" a German bred dog and its offspring from birth to adulthood in case you care to.
The better breeders ( and dog owners ) tend to use this knowledge, others don´t...

I guess, what I want to say is, that through the process of training, titling, showing, you are able to select -
our breeders are no Saints, several far away from, but our system allows us to know, in case we are interested and involved.

The biggest problem, as soon as you think internationally, is the attention to "BSZS, BSP " participants "only". Most dogs will never see one of those events, they are in the local clubs, and in case of breeding it´s about the females first and foremost.
A good brood bitch ( temperament wise ) is not necessarily a good show bitch, but able to produce more than well ( standard conformation with great temperament bred to a "fancy" male ). Those females are the basis of a lot of very succeful breeders, not the "winners".
No videos of those dogs, no fancy titles, but maybe the most important part of successful breeding.

Forgot to mention that I like your attitude, "Andor´s human"...
I hope you will have a lot of fun with your dog - you sound like a part of the solution.