Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 3

thanks for prooving my point VK

Duke, you didn´t get my point.
I didn´t want to promote titles, I tried to promote actual training and comparison.

When you raise "police dog prospects" you train them, and in case they fail you weed them out.
When someone offers you a "green prospect" you test the dog.
You don´t buy the dog only because the seller tells you "it´s a great dog because the parents have been great dogs..." You want proof.

The only difference: In your job pedigrees are not important, only health and working ability, whereas the "job" of a GSD breeder should be to take care about health, working ability, and conformation.

Once again, I am not talking about "titles, no matter what" - I am talking about training and titling by yourself, selection will follow inevitably...

Right now in most countries people are able to breed and sell dogs looking like GSDs nobody besides the breeder ever has seen. In case those breeders would train, title, show, and health test their own stock a lot of dogs and breeders would vanish because of natural selection.

I am not stupid, I don´t believe in "titles only", but for the sake of the breed training and titling is a beginning.

Duke overstates our position in pedigrees and titles like we don't even care what the dog looks or acts like or that we even need to see it.

That is totally not what anyone is saying or said. Just a diversion really.

 

Truth is without titles the gsd industry worldwide collapses and all the non titling breeders and vendors are out of business. They ride the wave of prosperity the structure brings but add nothing to it, just take.

I get your point and dont promote to breed every dog possible but in many cases titles are used as selling tools without guaranteeing better quality pups or better breeder backup/guarantees etc.

recently I saw an ad stating pups for sale from titled german imports, and "all dogs on the pedigree are titled""

now thats the case with evere german puppy, so nothng special there

but what does this tell you about the pups for sale, health, temperament, suitability

what does this tell you about marketing and price of pups

what is the actual extra value on these pups over an american breeder who trains his dog in SAR for example and has all dogs healthtested.

Only the most uneducated dog people and puppy farmers will fall for that.

Anyone who feeds a dog and trains it knows they are going to dig deeper than looking at pieces of paper.

Next gsd I buy I will know more about the breeder's personal and business life and his dogs than the breeder himself does.

I will go full autistic, obsessive and stalker mode about it to get the right dog before I hand over my money.

These people that buy a dog off the internet WTF?

I feel sorry in advance for my next breeder.....or I will just mate my dog to an unregistered, strong dutch Mali bitch and be done with it.

the last option probably will happen

"Titles" nothing special?

Tell that the handler who just titled his dog, or better, tell that the breeder who just gave away a dog for free because the dog misses a tooth, a testicle, is gunshy, or doesn´t survive the bitework...

What does this tell you about the pups ...?

In case I know sire and dam ( and when I am actively involved in training the chance to know sire and dam is pretty high ) there is a pretty good chance the pup will inherit some traits from mom and dad...followed by a close look into the litter...
Do you get what I try to say? Get involved, learn, train, and learn how to select, stop to "believe".

What does this tell you about marketing and price?

The GSD, although the breed with the most breeding requirements in my country, still is the cheapest breed... The reason: All of them have to "title" - and although according to you it´s nothing special every GSD owner/handler knows a lot of dogs are not made for it ( health, working ability, conformation ).

Healthtested SAR dogs?

In case it´s a "real" SAR dog, not a dog wearing a cute harness, that´s fine. As breeding requirement I want to see after the RH title a breed survey, no problem.

You only think about "dogs not worth the working dog title" - they are out there, more than enough, but AS SOON AS YOU BECOME INVOLVED you will know the difference.

My post is not about:
Take a look at titles and you will be fine, it´s about "train your own dogs prior to breeding, and be honest enough about their advantages and disadvantages" - don´t be afraid to show your dog to judges ( IPO / RH / show / breed survey ) - even in case your dog may not be suitable for breeding it may be more than suitable for you.

Not only are titles important, but even more important than the title itself is the ability to actually have the dog evaluated either by yourself or someone you trust.
Titles are great, but I want to see the dog actually work.
I'd rather have a dog with all the right stuff and work the IPO myself than spend a bunch of money on a titled dog that can title but never perform to a standard I'd be happy with.
It comes down to this:
There are a few exceptional untitled dogs that can title very well with the training, but I will say that almost none are from dogs that were not titled. This is why the titles are important.

I would say though, that once you have a show rating and did reasonably well in conformation (G for working lines/SG for show lines) hips and elbows are good, correct size and titled, then the breed survey in my opinion is kind of superfluous but the certificate is beautiful and the critique is very valuable for choosing a proper mate for your dog.

read it again Susie, I say a pup from Germany with all titled dogs is nothing special, because every pup has that, cant breed without title so EVERY pup, good bad and ugly, shy, dysplastic, all of them have all dogs on their pedigree titled

so we get to your next point, do it yourself, work your dog etc, how many of the titled breedingstock in USA is really HOT and how many are titled imports with the sole purpose of producing pups, and dont ever do more than just that

if I buy ten titled females and breed all every year to the latest WUSV winner, does that make me a responsible breeder or a good businessman

 

The truth is…there were very few breedings to the American WUSV winner after he won. There were issues with the pedigree and people had already figured out what kind of production they were getting out of him so there was not a huge rush to breed to him, I’m not sure why you keep pushing this idea that people just breed to the winners when the facts don’t support it. Last year’s winner of the USCA Nationals, has very few litters on the ground. The dogs that came in the top 5 aren’t spreading their genetics any more than many “breeder owned” stud dogs who are being used to cover all their bitches. Winning and titling has absolutely nothing to do with the majority of breeding practices in the United States.

The United States is huge…which affects breeding decisions. You’d imagine that the winner of our regional would get more breedings to the bitches in the area, not even that holds true. Two out of the last three years our region has been won by a male, they might have 5 litters on the ground between the two of them. The work is great, both have shown at nationals, very good dogs…but no one is breeding to them.

Want to know who people breed to? Their own dogs, or their friend’s dogs. They’ll claim to search the world for the “perfect match” for their female’s pedigree, and magically that male is 20 minutes down the road or better yet right in their own back yard. Want to know why this country can’t produce the working dogs they need? Breeders don’t care, they breed to what’s closest, they sell the puppies as “working lines” and count their cash. Titles? Who needs them? Everyone will make claims about producing and SD or a K9 (99% of the time it’s not true). Their customers don’t care to check, and on top of that it’s pretty much impossible to fact check those claims anyways. Dogs are “tested” in their back yards and then “proven” as producers because the puppies go to homes and are never heard from or seen again. Success!

Everyone is claiming to be doing what’s best for the breed, but when you look at their track records, most can’t show a single proven working dog…titled or “real.” That's America for you.

Joan...keep taking shots. If you were actually involved in the breed, you wouldn't have had any issue looking up my dog when I said he got a V conformation rating on a certain weekend. For those wondering...there's the perfect example of an American breeder. If it's not in their own back yard, or no one has shoved a stud ad in their face through a forum or Facebook, they can't possibly be bothered to search out a dog. That's exactly how "deep" a breeding search actually goes for most, "Which two dogs am I going to throw together this month? Door #2 to door #6 sounds good to me!"