Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 11

VK, how many times have you to be told about the personal insults? Quit now!!!!

yes VK that is what is happening in KNPV, and indeed a relative small number of dogs title each year, but that doesnot say the dogs produced that cannot or do not title are no good dogs, many are used for breeding and many go to police or army anyway,

I would say most good breeders in ALL venues will look at quality first and foremost and will tell you that a title doesnot guarantee breedingquality, you have to look past that  

 

^ from comment to joan or more recent??

Duke please clarify, seems swarm is as confused as me with your comment, not being snarky.

which comment please ?

FFS, anything honest now will sound like an insult.

I think what’s being confused here is comparing a country without a solid system or history of producing good dogs, to a whole continent full of countries which has no problems producing good dogs. The issue with accepting that people continue to breed without working their dogs at all and just claiming they’re great, is that new people will never be able to tell the difference between a that person and someone who isn’t breeding good dogs and making the same claims. For most of the people on this forum…that’s not a worry or a problem…as I’ve said, Americans put the burden of research on the buyer and the whole system is pretty much set up to keep people in the dark as much as possible (those that don’t title are the majority and need to have the ability to sell dogs).

It's really not about the few dozen people that can produce decent dogs without working them. It's about those that claim to be doing that but are actually producing crap. Just buying imports, or dogs from other breeders, raising them up, breeding them, and still having no issue selling those puppies to hobby sport homes where the dogs end up failing and causing another person to get disheartened about a sport and the breed.

I think hobby sport homes will mostly buy from titled/known parents and the people who just breed will supplie pet market mostly

but if someone is clueless and just breeds titled import to titled import you think they will produce top quality, if that was the case you would have been able to stop importing ages ago

 

BW, I see it differently, but of course that doesn't make me right. 75 % of the German Shepherds in Germany I don't consider having been worked and you couldn't give one to me for breeding or working. ( I don't mean that maliciously just sincerely and I know, "Who am I to question almighty....lol"). Regardless of the title behind their name.
So just as you would never buy or personally own the majority of stock in America, I feel the same way about Germany. Now I am not saying there is not some super dogs in Germany, there are for sure....but the majority don't meet my working standard for the breed. Well, I think the same thing is true basically in the U S.
At the end of day, I think what's at end of leash is more important than end of name.....especially when it comes to training. The good thing about evaluating LE dogs, is evaluators only care about what's on leash. There are far more good dogs in U S than many give credit for, because the novice and the elitist won't consider anything but status. That doesn't change the quality of other dogs. America has a different system than Europe, as do many FCI countries, it's not going to change either, I have never belittled anyone that does sincere training, as I'm sure you haven't either, but at end of day I have to evaluate what is in front of me trainingwise......and though a higher % of the better dogs in America come from titled stock, overall I think the best dogs come from trained stock.
So I think you, Susie and I have common ground, but we have differences also.

I get what you’re getting at Gustav…and it’s true. The difference between Germany and the United States is that if in Germany you’d have 25% of the dogs…that’s a lot more dogs nominally than you would have in the United States. If we’re talking working line litters in the United States, the same 25% is extremely small in actual numbers, and I know you wouldn’t take dogs from 25% of the WL litters in this country (I wouldn’t). That’s the problem…we cannot sustain a national breeding program, and support each other as breeders and have variability in lines and pedigrees when there are so few dogs to choose from. In Germany…that 25% is still a real figure that allows for the diversity that’s needed to sustain a breed and the proper working characteristics many look for.

Titling or no titling…but at least working…happens much more in Germany than it does here to prove what the dog at the end of the leash is capable of. In the United States…too many breeders are focused on the paper work and expect results from that end…it’s just easier, period.

Couldn't have said it better..."overall I think the best dogs come from trained stock." And I agree 100%...the problem is that the training always gets overblown and weak/below average work gets passed off as amazing to those that don't know any better.

' ..the problem is that the training always gets overblown...passed off as amazing to those that don't know any better.'

But 'the best dogs come from trained stock.'

If the 'best dogs come from trained STOCK', we are speaking of offspring, not selling the training. If people are truly 'passing off' training as amazing, they are most likely trying to sell the training with the dog.
I think Gustav is not talking about selling any one's training, but advocating training before breeding. Breeding untrained, untested stock is worse than shooting craps.