GSD With White Shepherd Parents - Question For Mods - Page 3

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by GSDHeritage on 26 March 2017 - 19:03

Joan, you are 100% right as one parent does need to be a sable to produce a sable pup. If you look carefully at some GSDs down as white you will see some have a yellow tint or those markings.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1398720-windstroms-saruman-von-finn

So a true White Shepherd will not produce any color but white.  What I understand from the White Shepherd breeders that only bred white dogs for generations that the dogs with color in the background will produce dogs of the various colors and the off-white color.  Sometimes when they DNA a white dog with the yellow tint this is proven.  They can look white but actually be masking a different color.


by hexe on 26 March 2017 - 22:03

Don't forget, there's no requirement that someone who has a clue be the one who selects the color on the pup's AKC registration slip--so undoubtedly there are a hell of a lot of sable GSDs that are registered as black & tans, black & silvers, black & creams, etc., instead of sable.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 March 2017 - 08:03

[GSDHeritage (admin)] - 26.3.2017 - 19:03

"Joan, you are 100% right as one parent does need to be a sable to produce a sable pup."
 

Edited by GSDHeritage: Off topic removed
In this case, people unaware of the relevant genes - or at least the ones long ago postulated by such as Little and explained to GSD breeders by Dr Malcolm Willis in 1976's "The German Shepherd Dog, Its History, Development and Genetics" and 1991's "The German Shepherd Dog, a Genetic History of the Breed"

Edited by GSDHeritage: Rude comments not accepted on the PDB  Les, Be Polite in responses.

Although a non-white GSD can almost never produce a yellow sable
(seen on Collies & Malinois, etc, and produced by even one copy of the dominant 
A^y  allele of the Agouti Pattern gene series) or a wolf-sable (seen on such as GSDs, and produced by the second-to-dominant  A^w  allele of the Agouti Pattern series), that does NOT apply to what we see when the Agouti alleles are prevented from expressing themselves.

To express themselves, the alleles for colour and for pattern require the presence of two pigments - eumelanin
(for black, liver, blue) and phaeomelanin (for tan to fawn, cream & "silver").
Not all genes & alleles have been DNA identified as to their effect.

It IS known that the recessive 
a^ a^  pairing found in self-black GSDs, and the dominant  K^B  allele that causes self-black in such as Labradors, blocks or suppresses phaeomelanin (I dislike the popular term "masking" used as a hang-over from pre-DNA days - our breed being one of many with the genetics to have a predator mask, I consider that "masked" should be reserved for that marking). The genetic term for this blocking is "epistatic" or "epistasis".
However, in self-white GSDs
(aka Bergers Blanc Suisse outside the UK & NAmerica this millennium) that pairing is unlikely to be what suppresses the production of eumelanin - there must be some other gene that does that blocking. As far as I know, the gene & its allele have not yet been identified (most research is sensibly focussed on alleles that cause disorders), but for those interested,

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html
is a web-page likely to be one of the first to list it when it does get identified.
It points out that the recessive 
e^ e^  pairing of the Extension gene series is epistatic to eumelanin production, and so is likely to be what suppresses black/liver/blue in self-white dogs.

"If you look carefully at some GSDs down as white you will see some have a yellow tint or those markings."

Those markings are commonly known as "badger breakthrough". As Schmutz points out, they occur in the areas where saddle or sabling would be seen. So whatever gene
(
e^ e^  or something else) has suppressed the eumelanin is not 100% effective

"So a true White Shepherd will not produce any color but white."

😖 WRONG! You left out an IMPORTANT fact.

A mating between a PAIR of self-white BBSs or GSDs will produce no coat colours (apart from any "badger breakthrough"), because both parents are homozygous for the allele that is epistatic to eumelanin AND homozygous for the allele that is epistatic to phaeomelanin, and so neither pigment can be produced by their progeny because those pups MUST ALSO be homozygous for both the alleles that suppress the coat pigments. Their 2 alleles of the Agouti Pattern gene, ditto of the Black/Brown gene, ditto of the Dilution gene, ditto of the blacK gene, are irrelevant, because NEITHER coat pigment is produced. But alleles of those 4 genes are PRESENT in every BBS and every self-white GSD, as well as in EVERY breed or cross-breed of coyote or dhole or dingo or dog or jackal or wolf.

But matings between a self-white and a non-sable but "coloured" GSD OFTEN produce some sable pups. As the "coloured" non-sable GSD cannot be a carrier for the dominant 
A^y  or  A^w, that pup proves that the self-white possessed the allele for sable and so was, genetically, a "white sable"!

I wish people had to understand precise terminology
(such as the difference between the terms "colour" and "pattern") before they were allowed to let a dog mate a bitch!
That would of course, eliminate a HUGE proportion of current so-called "breeders" - which would no doubt remove most of the strain felt by people who volunteer in "dog rescue" organisations!

I see that this thread was started by

[Sunsilver]'s - 26 March 2017 - 14:03
"I have come across a sable GSD with 2 white parents (snip). Both parents are AKC registered."

Like the world's other KCs, the AKC is unlikely to have demanded DNA proof of parentage. I remember a GSD Genetics group I used to belong to where one unknowledgeable "breeder" claimed that he had a litter with some brindles in it and there was no way the tan-point dam had been mated by any stud other than the named tan-point one. We eventually persuaded him to have the paternity test done - and the brindle pups were NOT sired by the tan-point stud. I've forgotten who the last Köred brindle GSD was, but she was a rarity in 1928 or whenever it was.

Without DNA proof that both RECORDED parents of the pup
[Sunsilver] saw are INDEED its parents, my instincts smell a mis-mating. However, I see NO indication of sable markings on Regalwise Kountry Charm, the GSD she originally linked us to (and I enlarged it to 500%). It was, of course, taken by an incompetent photographer who had the sun shining from the far side of the pooch instead of somewhere behind the photographer. Nevertheless, the sun was high enough to fully illuminate Charm's back along the "saddle" area where sable should be.
Although

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Manchi+von+Warnerhaus&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&imgil=H_fHBrPGpyvNHM%253A%253B3XJSzFP1_F0hFM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pedigreedatabase.com%25252Fgerman_shepherd_dog%25252Fdog.html%25253Fid%2525253D2618235-manchi-von-warnerhaus&source=iu&pf=m&fir=H_fHBrPGpyvNHM%253A%252C3XJSzFP1_F0hFM%252C_&usg=__mRn5f-Za0f1kwpddIwXf0j765oA%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjZhdi4gPbSAhVKslQKHQWoCpUQyjcIKw&ei=8KnYWNnNLsrk0gKF0KqoCQ&biw=1067&bih=437#imgrc=H_fHBrPGpyvNHM:
and
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Manchi+von+Warnerhaus&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&imgil=GrgbceOMf52c2M%253A%253B3XJSzFP1_F0hFM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pedigreedatabase.com%25252Fgerman_shepherd_dog%25252Fdog.html%25253Fid%2525253D2618235-manchi-von-warnerhaus&source=iu&pf=m&fir=GrgbceOMf52c2M%253A%252C3XJSzFP1_F0hFM%252C_&usg=__UlAVdmFxM6Z-Pmq_yl0axGkKp2g%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjZhdi4gPbSAhVKslQKHQWoCpUQyjcIKw&ei=8KnYWNnNLsrk0gKF0KqoCQ&biw=1067&bih=437#imgrc=GrgbceOMf52c2M:
both show a sable, neither of them is on his pdb page or in an album on his page.

On pg,3
[GSDHeritage (admin)] links us to Saruman, who has so much "bleed-through" that I suspect that he is an  e^ e^  of the sort that used to be associated with Avon Prince of Alumvale (the Brits used to call them "blondes") but with his tan paled right out. (And oh I HATE that "stack" 😖! The rear hock (our in-step) SHOULD be vertical, the toes of the forward rear foot should be vertically below the hip's ball-joint!).
The 
e^ e^  pairing doesn't care whether the eumelanin is for sable or tan-point, for black or for an "off-colour", it BLOCKS it - but not always with 100% success.
Sadly, no page that mentions Misty Meadow Gemini bothers to show her photo, although she is sometimes LISTED as being a sable. Which kind of indicates that she was born with sabling but maybe advanced black-loss & colour-paling turned her hairs to the "silver" of old-age.
Edited by GSDHeritage:   Groups sites are off topic on the PDB

Les The Kiwi Pauling


Reliya

by Reliya on 27 March 2017 - 08:03

Good morning, Les. (At least, it's morning here.)

I have a question about what I said. I was just speculating, but was I correct in saying that it's possible some whites may be carrying brindle?

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 March 2017 - 09:03

Hi, [Reliya]. You caught me while I was correcting a couple of my grammar errors.

You were DEFINITELY correct about many (possibly most!) self-white GSDs POSSESSING an allele for wolf-sable. But "carrying" is the wrong word. "Carrying" means that the allele is accompanied by a "superior" allele of the gene, and that "superior" allele has switched it off and so it cannot be exoressed.

 

In dogs, the only Agouti Pattern allele "superior" to the  A^w  for wolf-sable is the  A^y  for yellow sable. GSDs should not possess an  A^y, but as it is the allele possessed by all BSD Malinois - and some people advocate cross-breeding between BSDs and GSDs to widen the GSD gene-pool plus bring back some of the courage & nimbleness that most pet GSDs and show-is-all GSDs have lost since Max Stephanitz's day (partly because of the fashion for maximum-&-above height plus excessively deep chests plus over-angulation behind), and because KCs don't parentage test every pup, there are SURE to be some alleles from BSDs in some modern "GSDs".

 

However,  a "GSD" with an  A^y  will still be sable - just yellow-sable instead of wolf-sable. Just to make VISUAL identification tricky: if that "GSD" is homozygous for the un-named recessive that produces bi-colours, the result will be a VERY dark pooch, just as some BSD Malinois are very deep.!

 

OOPS!

My aged astigmatic, catracted, myopic-etc eyes 👀 mis-read your text.

 

The allele for brindle is the intermediate  k^br.  All GSDs are nowadays supposed to be homozygous for the recessive  k^y  that ALLOWS (but does not FORCE) both eumelanin and ophaeomelanin. But any pooch that has even one  k^y  allele PLUS has genes gthat allow both thise pigments WILL display its brindle effect EXCEPT when it is swiutched off by having a dominant  k^B  as its partner. So do not expect to ever see a brindle-marked black Labrador!

 

Les The Kiwi Pauling


Reliya

by Reliya on 27 March 2017 - 09:03

Sorry for the confusion, Les. I didn't mean wolf gray (A^w), but the "extinct" color of brindle in the GSD. It would be K^br. The white would hide that, wouldn't it?

 

Edited to add: Since solid brindles used to exist (correct me if I'm wrong), does that mean GSD used to carry A^y because the only way to express solid brindle would be on a yellow sable?

 

 


Reliya

by Reliya on 27 March 2017 - 09:03

I think I am incorrect about solid brindles existing. Sorry.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 March 2017 - 11:03

 

[Reliya] - 27 March 2017 - 09:03

"Sorry for the confusion, Les. I didn't mean wolf gray (A^w), but the "extinct" color of brindle in the GSD. It would be K^br. The white would hide that, wouldn't it?

Edited to add: Since solid brindles used to exist (correct me if I'm wrong), does that mean GSD used to carry A^y because the only way to express solid brindle would be on a yellow sable?"

 

[Reliya] on 27 March 2017 - 09:03

"I think I am incorrect about solid brindles existing. Sorry."
 Edited by GSDHeritage: Off Topic

Right - you need to TIGHTEN your use of words.
 

1: "wolf gray" is not the right term for wolf sable. There is no "wolf gray". The Grey wolves are presumably almost homozygous for  A^w, but - like GSDs - Grey wolves vary considerably in colouration!
Wolf sables can be gold-sable (equivalent to saddle-backed tan-points) or grey-sable (equivalent to blanket-backed tan-polints) or "black" sable (equivalent to bi-colour tan-points). After you join
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/The_GSD_Source/info
you can click
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/The_GSD_Source/photos/albums/1844587168
and look though that  A^w  album, and others showing GSDs of various patterns & colourations growing up.

 

2: "brindle" is a PATTERN, not a "colour".
 

3: "K^br" doesn't exist - if it did, it would be the dominant in its gene series. The code I typed is  k^br  because it is NOT a dominant, it is only an intermediate, able to switch off the fully recessive  k^y  but not the dominant  K^B.
 

4: "white would hide that" is untrue. If you pluck a few hairs from a white pooch then lay them on stripoed paper you will discover that white hairs have NO colour - the stripes will show through them. That's a small part of why I don't like people claiming that something "masks" something else. A WALL masks what's on the other side!
LEARN that white hairs on dogs appear white because they have NO pigment in them to absorb any wavelengths of light. And so light that lands on white hairs penetrates and reflecects & refracts inside the hair unitl it reaches a surface at the right angle to emerge. whereupon - because we are used to seeing sunlight & house lights as white - we see the spectrum that emerges from "white" hairs lit by "white light" as being white.
The reason that a white-coated anumal cannot display the effect of a  k^br  allele is simply that there is NO PIGMENT in a "white" hair, but TWO pigments are needed to show any coat pattern (whether brindle or polka-dot or sable or striped or tan-point)  - one dark, one pale. It's NOT a case of the pattern exists but is hidden or "masked" - it DOESN'T EXIST without at least 2 pigments/colours.

 

5: Yes, you are incorrect about "solid brindles". Although dog-people commonly refer to "solid black" and various other "solid" whatevers, the adjective "solid"refers to being the same ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Coat patterns are on only the surface of the pooch.

Howevcer - the brindle pattern can be expressed on ANY pooch whose coat has 2 "colours". My 1962 tan-point Lorelei Valkyr was sold to a dairy farmer. She was mated to the dog who took BIS at our National show (our equivalent of Westminster) - and produced some BRINDLE pups. As soon as we saw the farm Collie we knew who the REAL sire of the litter was! (That being BEFORE a DNA parentage test was available, the farmer did NOT register any of the pups,).

 

Les The Kiwi Pauling, off to heat dinner at 19 minutes past midnight!


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 27 March 2017 - 14:03

Les, if you read the rest of the thread, you'll see I corrected what I'd written - one of Manchi's parents was sable, the other white. There is NO picture on his pedigree, because I am the one who entered it, and the only thing I had to go by was an AKC pedigree that listed his colour as WHITE (WH)!!

So much for the accuracy of AKC pedigrees.... :(

I will look for those pictures of him, and post one on his ped. Thanks for finding them!

 

Edit: okay, Les, I saw one of those pics at the top of the page, here, and it is NOT Manchi: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/classifieds.viewad?adid=256307

So, now I have to go back and change the pedigree.  Maybe Manchi really IS white... I'll go with that until someone can prove otherwise.


by GSDHeritage on 27 March 2017 - 16:03

Sunsilver: Maybe Manchi really IS white... I'll go with that until someone can prove otherwise.

The AKC database does have Manchi down as white. The four and five generation research pedigrees can have errors and not always up to date especially if you order them on-line.






 


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