Training: What is in hand - Page 3

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by vk4gsd on 13 March 2017 - 20:03

I would not work a dog based on its main meals being food rewards, that dog is deficient.

I prefer a dog like mine that when hungry it will reject food to do work, no matter how tired or hungry it is, work is the sole motivation to be near you in a correct dog.

yogidog

by yogidog on 13 March 2017 - 21:03

And vk we seen a lot of your video by the way im not trying to b rude. This is not my idea but the training methods from some of the best trainers in the world today witch I have travelled half way around the world to train with and have also brought them to my own country to keep up with the newest training systems . This is not youtube this is hands on best reward system around and believe me it works very well and very quickly . And when it comes to protection the dog will work through hunger because the bite is the highest reward

by Centurian on 13 March 2017 - 22:03

Cutaway .. I am very famliar with Skinner and Skinnerian research . At 14 ears old I studied Skinnerian research and studies. . I was truly impressed at that time that he could train pigeons to play ping pong ball :-) !! Karen Pryor worked for the US NAVY training dolphins in the1950's and Operant Condition is Skinnerian based principles for thos that don't know. The hard part with doplphins is that you dont interact with them with a leash and collar in the 1950's. So , positive training had to be superb .

Yogi ----- What you are saying is that the leader , the mom /dad of a famly , they control the resources and if you want your part of the resources there need be some cooperation . Often I write that an avenue to interact and teach your dog[ and children] is to attend to their needs . That is part and parcel what your relationship is based upon . So does anybody think that eating your dinner to survive has no high value? I think that has a little more value than expecting a treat. I write continously , train a dog to work for a reward and that is exactly what you gert , a dog trained looking for a reward. Teach a dog to work for you to ensure survival , and thast is what you get , a dog working in life with you so that you both survive.


by vk4gsd on 14 March 2017 - 01:03

Yogi you see a lot of my videos cos I am the .000001% that posts my own videos and have nothing to sell.

You have never seen one where the dog is given food to work.

Food rewards are markers in marker training, nothing else. Most dogs if good breeding before 12mo prefer a ball, tug, sleeve, suit.....than food and will in fact walk past a bucket of fresh steak to get at the work.

You guys use food inappropriately.

The handler feeds the dog proper meals because that's part of responsible animal care not to make the dog a cringing survivalist for its food as yogi/centurion suggest.

yogidog

by yogidog on 14 March 2017 - 06:03

Centurian that's exactly what I mean u totally understand thanks .vk I don't think u understands what im saying because your mind is closed to new ideas I want a dog that im.in control of all time I want the dog to work for me and with me in every situation not take off and do his own things iv said to and so have others u have no control over your dog during bite work your dog is wild but that's ok because that's what u want. And my dogs will also walk past a bucket of steak to do bite work but the difference is I won't b dragged behind him we will walk side b side into battle bec that's how a team works. And it all stems from when my dog is a little pup and he said to himself ill listen to me da he knows better because on matter the situations it is imprinted in him

by vk4gsd on 14 March 2017 - 07:03

Each to his own.

Food, water, shelter is unconditional for any animal I own, I would like to think everyone was like that.

My dogs and animals receive the same food, shelter , water no matter they do what I want or not.

Food rewards for training are different, rewards mark behaviour I want repeated. Most working dogs prefer a tug or ball over food after puppyhood.

My dogs are well fed and hunger is not used as a compliance tool and I don't use social isolation and crates as tools of punishment or drive building as some experts do.

Work genetics first and the rest follows automatically.

 

Seriously, what battles have you ever walked into ever, what do those seminars teach about battles, I'm interested.


yogidog

by yogidog on 14 March 2017 - 07:03

Genetics is,a definite but u must mold the dog to your liking .seminars teach u how to mold . I used to own a security firm I relyed heavily on the ability of my dogs we had many a hard night .

by Centurian on 14 March 2017 - 12:03

VK you think like a human but if you want to teach a child or a canine you have to think and feel like that child and canine . Love can be given unconditional ... but resources in life by every creature is earned. Food , water , shelt just hand that over to you ? You have food for yourself and .. did someone just hand that over to you ? No, it was in some fashion earned by someone. Unfortunately , there is a condition in life .. you don't work , you don't eat .

Who would go to work without being paid ? Now it is not the paycheck that is foremost but the fact that their paycheck allows you to obtain your goals [ that is the value of a pay check ] ! In essence the opportunity to fulfill needs. i.e to obtain groceries to eat , for one . So by interacting with the owner and by both dog/owner performing a task , does not the dog in his performance likewise reach one of his primary goals ? i.e to eat in order to maintain his life ? What better way is there for the dog to desire to trust you , to rely on you , to want to look after you ,to perform with you , since you partake in fulfilling his needs ? [ point bland: all the aspects of your relationship]

Actually , I think Michael Ellis is off in the way he states things . What I am stating in essence : is not that ' a' or ' the' Reward should hav" high value " but rather the 'True High Value' should be in the value found within relationship that you both have which lends itself to the dog and you working in inision fulfill needs by performing .

That is to say , the food given [ reward] , or the treat given should not be regarded as the primary value to the dog . Instead the value should be that your dog is allowed to interact and performed with you , so that you both have your goals and needs fulfilled. The dog comes to understand that working with you brings him to his** goal . Those being nourishment , safety , etc etc. This is different than 'reward ' usage because in that reward usage concept the dog can have in his heart and mind to work for itself. Dogs like children are opportunistic and have the tendencies to think of ' what is in it for me attitude ' , sort to speak. They don't foremost think in terms of others , us . Selfishness of sorts . For example , when a threat comes is the fist notion of the dog to protect itself/self prerservation or to protect you both ? The difference of the dog working unto itself for it's own gain as opposed for the dog working for you both [ the good of the pack]. The treat or reward is no tor at least should not be , the true primary value to the dog IMOp.

Is not the trust , the notion the dog can count on you resulting in a dog more willing take your direction more valuable , than a dog looking for a[ high value] rewards ? If not, then IMOp then there is something drastically wrong in the relationship. And that is where the training type ,' making the dog do something by and for you ' is substituted for the training type ,' the dog in it's heart wanting to do something [ with you ] ' . If I am not mistaken is part of what Yogi brings to light.

yogidog

by yogidog on 14 March 2017 - 13:03

Centurian u are on the money you really understand what im trying to put across. You just said it better and in more detail . A dog works every time to better its situation and im not only talking bite work so why not take advantage of that . But the rules must be black and white do what I ask and get fed dont and go hungry no point sending him back to his pen after him running a muck and saying her u go there a big bowl of food . So the next day he comes out why would he do as u ask sure if he doesn't he gets a reward anyway . This method makes no sense at all think about it

by Swarnendu on 14 March 2017 - 14:03

Well, I also work for a paycheck, but I hate my employer!!





 


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