Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 6

Going back to Sunsilver's original premise - that the genetic development of Shepherd dogs is more closely related to that of the 'group' of Mastiff breeds, meaning that the genes are still there, to be built on; and thus that it might be quite
easy to breed for a 'Mastiff'-type trait like a great big head in a Shepherd (or at least a lot easier to do so than if you wanted to introduce it to, say, a Pointer). I wanted to see what it was that Sunny says she 'had not read' in full, in what Malcolm Willis wrote.

Unfortunately I've not yet been able to find either the Buffon diagram or any reference to it, or to the list sorting breed types into functional groups (Ostrander & Kayne's 2005 "Canine Genome"), else I'd have copied Malcolm's related text out here in case anybody is interested. I'm looking at "Genetics Of The Dog" as well as his "The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History Of The Breed"; maybe it is from one of his other volumes, Sunny; or a later reprint than wot i've got ? [Or it is just really badly indexed]. I'll keep looking.

However, while skimming through looking for ^^^, I notice that in several places in both books Malcolm said that characteristics relating to growth and development "are likely to be of intermediate to high heritability." I.E. as distinct from things like litter size, or conception rates, which are low heritability. So (he argues) its reasonable to think things like weight and height, being under higher additive genetic control, can be developed though linebreeding fairly rapidly, where other characteristics may not. Unfortunately there is no specific mention of size of head ! So while I'm trying not to rely too heavily on this, in case I'm unintentionally cherry-picking, it would appear to back up the arguments of BE and DarylEhret that this sort of extreme would not really take too long to fix in, and would not necessarily need to involve any other breed input.

I now believe I spoke too soon without examining the evidence. Most, if not, all, of the samples originated from one photographer and there is clear photo manipulation.

http://memolition.com/2014/08/08/unbelievably-large-chinese-german-shepherd/

My reference to the Chinese was partly in reference to their obvious taste, and partly referring to the constraints of social acceptance we place on ourselves and general lack of discipline in our own culture.

But I believe as others in this topic have said, there is great possibility for change within few generations of breeding, especially in regards to physical type.
 

Hund, I've found the original post on the PDB that was the source of the information. Guess who posted it?? ^^^   Funny coincidence department...

 

Here's the link: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=221753-the-bottleneck-of-the-century--only-one-bloodline-left&p=10#223022

Maybe Mr. D. can tell you what edition of the book he was using as his source!

I apologize for not crediting him as the source of my info.

Sun, that's from the summer of 2008. Yes those charts are courtesy of Daryl but the 'Bottleneck' thred was actually started by Jantie.
Woah, there's some variety of posters past, on that one ! Good to see them again.

 

Edited to add:  Actually its no surprise I could not find the two you used at the start of this thred in any book of Dr Willis's;  Daryl started that post with a chart that IS out of Willis; but then carried on with the Buffon and Canine Genome illustrations so they could be read quickly as coming from the same source ... the thred is the same old same old 'SL v. WL';

but very interesting, for all that. Recommended reading.

Not of any further help on what we are talking about on THIS thred, though (although there is ONE post, where someone says perhaps  another breed could be crossed in, if the Studbook were reopened, and suggests Bernese - but then retracts that idea rapidly LOL).

Tibetan Mastiffs/Do Khyis seem to belong to guard- and herding dogs, not to Mastiff breeds. When you take a look at a "regular" specimen of this breed, it doesn´t seem to be too difficult to create a 3 parts German Shepherd Dog/one part Tibetan Mastiff.

That's right Susie, some of the Tibetans have far more extreme heads than this one so the massive head would be easier to get than pure GSD. If GSDs produced the Mastiff type heads seen on these Chinese Shepherds, at least one breeder, somewhere, would have got at least one crop up in regular breeding of heavy heads and I've never heard of one in UK and nobody has come forward to say they have seen/heard of one anywhere else, despite the fact we are all using the same bloodlines all over the world

Www-e...e-l_l_l _;  poss - ss -ibly;; but look at the last 3 of 5 pics on Page 2 of "Can you identify this dog ?" thred, of the adult dogs.

How, if they are heavily - and it would need to involve quite heavy use, IMO, knowing how 'mongrelisation' can throw breed-type off-kilter - using Tibetan Mastiffs (or other mastiff breeds, for that matter) with very square angulation of the back legs, have they succeeded in retaining quite such a typical modern GSD rear, so quickly ?

Selection

I was not able to find any "current" pictures, so hopefully this "trend" found an end shortly after it began.

Like Kaffirdog I don´t think it´s possible to get dogs that huge with that massive heads by selecting within the breed only.
There are some lines known for big ( too big ) heads, but even those heads are small compared to the Chinese dogs. Even a breeder with access to the complete genepool would need at least ten generations to get dogs like that - I doubt this was the case.

These dogs came up suddenly, there was no "development" - but this is just my opinion, not knowledge.

If people who like this look are/were breeding, then selecting for, that particular structure as well as the heads - which IIRC looked to be the case from the 'live' examples on the videos I saw, being Shown - then they apparently actively want that "GSD Look" to the other end of the dog. Now that troubles me, whether it's down to selective pure breeding or selective mongrel-production - 'cos presumably there are other examples that were brought into existence that have the big heads but a squarer body. NOT being shown in their parallel shows, and NOT being passed off as "German Shepherd Dogs" with 'improved' heads. So what has happened to those ? Pets ? Shelters ? Euthanasia ? Not young enough to be culled as babies, because they are unlikely to be able to tell for sure which dogs have enough 'shapely angulation'.  Even if the craze is now over, many dogs must still be living at this point.  And where dogs are living, some of them get bred ...

You can tell in a 6 - 7 weeks old puppy the angulation, the tail set, even the ear set - that´s no problem.