Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 3

These dogs show other Mastiff physical traits apart from the head. "

What exactly??

Commonsense suggests a mastiff cross would tend to floppy ears and non standard coat & pigment.

I doubt they have been going long enough to use inbreeding and culling to eliminate these traits.

 

A massive dome shaped head and large frames is a trend in sv dogs, a short step to the Chinese dogs when the CSV has already done the foundation.

 

Do you believe the CSV is a credible source in a country where state run media is normalised.

Body type and ear genetics are studied and seen as independent of each other. That would be a key mastiff trait, I am thinking.

http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-015-1702-2

 

The progeny of the latter posted sample dogs are also, themselves less extreme looking in head shape and sharp, defined stop. And especially showing an average type for GSD body mass, and in greater percentages.

Photoshop magic can not be eliminated for the extremes samples, I am thinking, too.

 

 

 

 

The link posted by Bee would support what VK is saying, I think. Also if you look at the collection of pics over on the "Can anyone identify..." thred, one point in common (actually noted there) is that those ears all look as though they have been posted and glued, the pinnae are way too long and would almost certainly have fallen over, left to themselves. We don't know how many pups in these litters have been discarded because their ears wouldn't stand.

Stressing that the majority of GSDs imported to and bred in (& shown in) China surely does not rule out there being a section of the Chinese dog fancy for whom this bastardization is acceptable / desirable. I said last time around that it is understandable that Chinese buyers are aesthetically drawn to dogs with larger, wrinklier heads - this being typical of many breeds developed by the Chinese themselves. And it may well be that some buyers are attracted to a larger head (and other perhaps more subtle features, like meatier elbows) in imported dogs, without any wish or intention to breed "for" that getting ever more exagerated in future generations.

Unfortunately we know (or should realise by now) that what someone starts breeding with today, with one set of intentions, can become something else entirely tomorrow because some of the offspring fall into the hands of people who breed with entirely the opposite set of values ( or with no values at all !).

I think Susie was correct when she said elsewhere that they have no right to do this to the GSD breed - it doesn't really matter that much to me whether it has been achieved by a short-cut through an outcross to some Mastiff, or is simply the breeding of a couple of generations in a specific direction, it is still so wrong !
 

let's all not get to sanctimonious about the Chinese breeding for a preferred type, that would just be too rich, way too rich. if they actually are breeding for a mastiff look then they are no more guilty than any other country doing there version of the same thing - and that's an indisputable fact.

at least the shiloh and king crowd had the ethics to call it another breed.

the ASL, the martin bro's creation, the Alsatian......etc, etc.


and Hund, can you please never talk of the Chinese preferences for meaty limbs when referencing the Chinese dog market, just please don't do that again....ever.

Ugh ! Point taken, Pete !

And yes, I think you have a good point about the various 'strands' of the breed arising in different countries but all departing from the original Standard / intentions - 2 (or more) wrongs do not make a right, do they ?

The Shiloh Shepherd originates with an outcross to a malamute cross.

Also, I don't put too much credence on what one thinks is a preferred look by an entire country based on a few of their other developed breeds because that idea ignores the greater number of developed breeds from the same country that aren't similar in any form.

The Chinese do have a name for these deviations being bred away from the GSD standard. I mentioned that earlier on in this thread.
 

http://memolition.com/2014/08/08/unbelievably-large-chinese-german-shepherd/

 

There is a puppy on there that shows clear tampering with the ears and other pics show exteme mastiff type wrinkling of the skin.  I do not believe it would be possible to attain and maintain this look with pure GSD breeding.   Has anyone seen a puppy, even one, that looks anything like this in a pure GSD litter?

 

MNJ

@ Margaret : Not me, and not over here. Thankfully. Doesn't mean it isn't happening in China. With or without an outcross. But if you'd presented a dog with a hinge in its back a dozen years ago to GSD owners who hadn't yet seen one, they would find it hard to believe that was happening.

 

Despite the effects of the Cultural Revolution, all Chinese people do not "think with one voice" (any more than Americans, or Brits, do !) so I do not accept that talking about a preference by a clique of people is any indication of the preference of an "entire country", Beetree - why would I ? I just said it was possible to understand that some would find these heads aesthetically pleasing, and that could be because they also like things like Shar Pei and various Mastiffs;  doesn't say anything about what those people think about the non-wrinkly etc Chinese breeds; doesn't say anything very much about anything else.  Does not even excuse those people from doing this, if that is where their preference leads them.  It is just an observation.

 

On the subject of "King Shepherds" and "Shiloh Shepherds" btw folks, let's not forget the number of breeders of those who were actively selling these as a preferred 'sort of GSD' to naive punters who then came here to compain they'd been ripped off when they wanted a real GSD ...

Those pics on that link are all really obviously photoshopped.... you can see the stretchmarks.

Dawulf - still doesn't explain the guys walking round a showring on video with real live ones. Maybe the photoshop is being used, even with most of the stills - but I suspect only to accentuate what is basically there.