A Question About Hips and Relatives - Page 1

Can someone explain to me why one dog would have a low ZW score and a littermate would have a high one?  The example I have in mind is that of the 2006 "N" litter from the del Lupo Nero kennel.  Nox del Lupo Nero (sire of Drago vom Patriot) has respectable ZW score of 83.  His full brother and littermate Nick del Lupo Nero has an even better 81 but, unfortunately, their full sister and littermate Nell del Lupo Nero carries a less-than-desirable 106.  Their sire, Irko vom Schmiedegarten, has a ZW score of 80 and their dam, Alexia del Lupo Nero, has a decent 90.  Their scores mean that Nox and Nick's numbers are about what one would expect.  Why then is Nell's so high?  What, other than a string of consistently poor choices in Nell's breeding partners might account for such a dramatic difference within a single litter?

The ZW not only depends on the dogs in question, but on their offspring, too.

All of them ( Nox, Nick, Nell ) were used for breeding - the more x-rayed offspring, the more accurate the ZW
( that said statistically the ZWs of well known studs are more accurate than the ZWs of females...).

Nell was bred to:

Black-Jack / 74,
Fanto / 76
Dack / 103 ( ! )
Yoschi / 66

Now you would need to research if Dack´s ZW went high after the Nell litter or before...

Hi Susie, quick question: Did you get the ZW values from SV DoxS or is there a separate database that makes it quicker to get them?
Regards,
J

Always the DOxS... sorry

Thanks for the quick reply! I have access to DOxS, was just wondering if there was another more convenient DB to check regarding ZW :)

Also the rating of the individual sibling will account for a higher number. If both broters were ''A Normal'' and the sister Noch Zuglassen she would have a higher ZW #.

To Susie: I understand that the progeny have a significant influence on the ZW score. Theoretically, Nell's ZW score at birth would have been in the mid-80s.

The reason I started this discussion is that I am considering purchasing a Black-Jack/Nell son.  If she had never had any other breeding partners, the offspring then should have had a ZW in the upper 70s.  This son has a ZW in the mid-90s because of the influence of Nell's other offspring.  That just doesn't seem right but I guess this is why breeding is an art as much as it is science.

According to your post, Black-Jack's half-brother Dack would seem to be the cause of her high ZW score.  But, her ZW score is higher than his.  If he's is the source of the problem, why doesn't her offspring from her other breeding partners--all of whom have lower ZW scores that hers "at birth" make hers lower than Dack's.  Are there more breeding partners than those you listed?  Logically, that would seem to be the case.  Or, is he benefiting from the other offspring of his dam (e.g. Black-Jack, Balko, etc.)?

Or, maybe I just need to get the Black-Jack/Nell son tested, x-rayed, and do all the due diligence I can and, if everything else looks good, proceed with the purchase.

ZW is very complex, to know more about the reason you´d need to check out every dog out of Nell.

"Or, maybe I just need to get the Black-Jack/Nell son tested, x-rayed, and do all the due diligence I can and, if everything else looks good, proceed with the purchase."

That´s what you should do - no matter the parents. The ZW doesn´t matter as long as the hips are okay ( and you are no breeder ).

On WinSis there are 3 Black-Jack/Nell dogs listed, 2x N/N, 1x FN/N Artax ( 9 pups in the A-litter though ).

Keep in mind a dog with a low zw whose zw stays low may simply mean that the dogs progeny weren't rated by SV and another dog may have a lot of ratings. On the flip side, a dog may have ONE offspring rated by SV as A3, a bunch rated by OFA as good or excellent, and none of those are calculated in the zw.

Case in point- I have a bitch who had a great zw. She was purchased by me young and all but one of her pups were rated in the USA, and the ratings are super. Of all of them, only 2 didn't pass OFA and each was UNILATERAL mild. She had ONE pup rated by SV because he sired a litter too young to be rated by OFA (no, this did NOT happen on my watch- I don't own him) and he rated A3 at the time. Because he was the only one of hers rated by SV, it raised her zw several points. The zw has so many variables and is so complex; you really need to look at all the angles when deciding how to proceed in a purchase.

gsdstudent is also correct that any dog having less than A1 will automatically have a higher zw.

Ironically, 2 of my OFA excellents were produced by a dog with a zw of 104 ;-)

Just as an example my first GSD Tonka (Arros vom Tonka Haus) was OFA Excellent and had a ZW of 97.. He sired 5 litters and all of his offspring that we X-rayed (all thru OFA) were all GOOD. I kept a son of his named Aiko... His ZW was 95. Aiko was OFA Good.

I know the reason for the higher ZW scores on both Tonka and Aiko was because they were not A stamped, but instead were a X-rayed and rated thru OFA.. The offspring were X-rayed and rated thru OFA as well.. None were done thru the SV.