WGWL - Page 22

Duke...sorry, most departments still don't need bomb detection that much. Drugs are much more prevalent and drug dogs are much more useful on a day to day basis. I don't deny your experience and your line of work, but I deal with enough departments around me and they don't need every dog to be a bomb dog, they do need the daily dogs to be drug dogs though.

Your second paragraph proves my point. Of course I know those things...but that's the idea...I call the dog weak, you make up 10 reasons why it's not weak and "what could have happened to lead to that picture." That's exactly the problem with dog training/evaluating dogs. In regards to the sleeve focused dogs...is it genetics or is it bad training that leads to the dog focusing so much on the sleeve? The person that WANTS to call it genetics...will call it genetics. Those that want to defend the genetics will blame the training.

Lol...and the barking in the blind for a ball...that's how I know you don't actually go to enough places and see training. I've seen one video of the ball dropper machine in the blind, I've never seen it done in person, it's sad that people have to keep bringing that up in order to prove some point. No one does that, few people have the knowledge, ability, or dog to be able to train that exercise in that way and then add in a helper and figure out how to keep the same picture. I can promise you not a single dog that is winning or getting on podiums has been taught to bark for a ball in the blind. Sorry...just sad when even someone who's trying to be moderate (props to you there) is still naming things that are just not true.

Bav lets agree to disagree, you are wrong on several points, but we can go on forever with yes no, I see you train with the top trainers in europe a lot so know more than I do, also I sell 150 plus detectordogs a year, know exactly what they are going to be trained for, but you know better than the people who train these dogs obviously

finally, do you think that someone who trains bark in blind on ball(preyreward) and changes the ball for a pillow or short sleeve, the dog will shift drives and bark for another reason, prey reward is preyreward

when they make the dogs look in the blind during revier on a ball or pillow, you really think the dog is looking in the blind to see if the helper is there, or is expecting preyreward only
you have to recognize this for what it is and understand that most dogs bite, but many of them are not suitable for LE or PP

Right...you're an IPO trainer I forget. You watch a lot of people train a bark and hold for a ball in the blind and then transfer it to a helper? I've yet to go to a single club where a helper is in the blind and the dog is barking for a ball. Most of the people I work with do not have the ability or the dog to even teach them to bark for a ball on themselves for added drive, yet you clearly know how all these people (outside of your area of expertise) are training bark and holds for a ball. I'd love to go to a club where the members are laying that type of IPO protection foundation by themselves, it would make my job as a helper 10 times easier.

My apologies as well, I don't know much and didn't realize you supplied the majority of green working dogs to the police departments in the United States. Curious how you made the statement that the LE market is so much bigger than the IPO market and yet I definitely know more than 150 that have gotten dogs this year for sport. Not sure how any broker gets by selling dogs to the United States when that few dogs need to be replaced year after year. What do you think the total market is for new dogs for LE? 200? 250 a year?

no bav I dont think that the market is 200 a year, I sell more than that a year and I am a small fish only, BUT I do know the market im working in and where my dogs go,and I do know the large contracts are about Explodogs mostly these days, and I am sure still many dogs are trained on drugs, but we seen a huge change over the past few years where dual purpose dogs tend to be all on Narc they changed to Explo as that is a big treath today, even the Labs I sold are explodogs

and FYI I am also IPO trainer and worked and organized seminairs with toptrainers, also I buy from and sell to IPO and KNPV trainers troughout europe, I am with dogpeople every day of the week,

now I will ask again, if you reward a dog in the blind with a ball, coming from balldropper or comig from the hand, will that trigger a different drive than when you reward that same dog with pillow or shortsleeve ??

So these explo dogs are big defense dogs, naturally territorial, handler aggressive, sharp, civil dogs that want to kill every man & beast they see  huh?

 

Just what I would want leading a platoon thru a minefield.

No wonder you hate these highly trainable, social, precision, workaholic, ball obsessed prey monkeys..... not what you want for detection work at all.

VK ,im not into handleragressive dogs sorry, but the dual purpose dogs that are trained on Explo DO need to have civil agression in order to arrest more than a sleeve wearing person

the majority of pedigree dogs we sell to LE are single purpose detectiondogs that work well on high balldrive, but dont go on the street as patroldogs, like I said before, just filled an order of six single purpose pedigree malinois, to find six Dual purpose pedigree malinois on short notice would be next to impossible, same goes for GSD, however it would be easyer to find the GSD than the malis

For chrissakes man, the sleeve / points dogs are that way because the handlers want and train them that way.

They are not born with a left forearm jute sleeve gene.

Surely you get basic concepts or are you just here to promote yr business?

surely you dont have a clue

drives in a dog are genetic, not trained, so yes they are born with a jute sleeve gene, as that sleeve represents prey

I need a dog that comes of the sleeve and engages the person, in sport they dont want or need such dog

what is so hard to understand about that, toptrainers know it, LE people know it, but you just wont accept

"..... so yes they are born with a jute sleeve gene, as that sleeve represents prey"

No, no, no - I really have to explain this to a man I actually respect?

I would prefer to believe yr best years are behind you and leave it at that....

I really don't understand why the US and some other countries LE services seem to wish to maintain the GSD /Mali / whatever crossbreed they can dream up, prey-driven, biteing, general operational dogs to also do scent work. Why not do as the Brits do and have two-dog teams, using a spaniel or lab type breed or mix more suited to the tasks of sniffing out drugs / alcohol /
money / weapons stashes ? Makes it easier to use the right dog for the right circumstances and environment, at least.