Czech Pedigree Help - Page 2

Bababoo... I am writing this at risk that I am going to make some more enemies. This is my opinion based on what I see and I am going to explain it.

I am not looking just back, as you say, I am looking at current dogs. Cora's sire Franco ze Zdenkovo dvora is Fast normal which in comparison with OFA that is equal to borderline HD. I would not have problem with it too much but I know that it is result of some dogs in past coming out to roost. It would be interesting to know what evaluations got her litter mates but that information is not available . If I look more in her past I see Klara "C" hips which persistently passes HB while skipping generations and then it is combined with dog Flame z Klubu Slaný also "C" hips . Klara on top of it is linebred 5 - 4,5 And then we have Quint z Daskonu which I have mentioned before.

I can forgive all that if bred to stud with strong hip backgroundand outcrossed from Klara.  If this female is strong dog which I would like to promote then from the breeding with such hips strong dog I would pick the best one if the rest of the liter mates would have less then 10 %+/- HD and then I would run with it by doing another out cross with great hips...... Anyway that is beyond this post.

But they used Dario vom Weinbergblick. The stud used, himself is probably great dog and that is why he may attract   people who are interested to breed to him. But he himself has level 1 elbow dysplasia ( OFA would probably consider it to dysplastic) and so does the litter mate DaCapo with ED mild ( mittel) . But unless it is ununited unconeal process I would eeehhh say maybe OK. But this dog has 6 noch zugelassen (= OFA mild HD) and 47 (!!!!!!!) fast normal (= OFA borderline ) in 7 generation pedigree. So personally I think this dog may be work wise excellent ( based on his pedigree) But I do not care if the dog came from Belgium or Mars he is a HD disaster in waiting. I would not breed this dog to anything of mine unless in some experimental endeavour which would involve program of at least 3-5 generations long with remote hope that I could better this HD and EL issue here.
Now all this is coming to me from pedigrees presented here on PDB. Maybe I am "just peeing on the keybord" LOL  as someone saisd... But  as Charles Barkley said: " I may be wrong - but I doubt it :) JMO 

I will say that  there are breeders who breed fast normal or noch zugelassen  as if they would be good hips which in Europe they are considered breedable hips. I personally do accept such hips only in minimal numbers if at all. The point is that Noch zugelassen or even fast normal hips in large numbers push the bell curve of the HD quality of hips  to the lesser quality side. In my opinion in best case scenario  you will  get  the quality which you breed or worse. Why worse? Because the quality of the hips depends not just on the dogs but also on the littermates of those dogs because littermates of those dogs are revealing what is the genetic phenotype of the dog you breed.  

 Example :

 You breed 2 dogs with OFA Excellent hip and they both have 9 littermates which are dysplastic. What do you think is probability of HD  you will get if you breed these 2 dogs. My guess  based on my and other breeders experience is that if you get 10 pups that there is high likelihood/probability is  that you will get  one pup with good or excellent hips  and 9 dysplastic dogs. In another words 10% good hips. More repetition of this breeding you do closer to the 10% you would get.  Now farther on the statistical bell curve to the lesser quality you push  your breeding dogs then less of the  quality  you will get. Shit in - Shit out. Take it or leave it. I do not care but this how I see it. 

As far as fring talks about quality of the offspring goes . That is basically a joke because people do not send bad hips for evaluation. Point in case is Cora. Look at her progeny. one out of all the dogs here on this PDB has hips evaluation posted. I ask why. Either because they were not done or are bad.
And what about Dario's progeny here on PDB? Non except one has listed x rays and that one which is done has moderate elbow dysplasia same as Dario. So who is peeing on a keyboard now fring?
Anyway this is just my opinion which served me well when I breed. You do as you see  fit. :)
Hans
 

you keep typing fairy tail and bad tongue others.
pdb not complete and not claim complete and do not verification
for hd/ed. need not rise butt from chair and type username and password
to DDK and SV sites and all information in front of you. that is fact not
speculation. 1 minute search on workng-dog find man in Amerika who have
DKK dario son with good hd/ed and dog not on pdb but SV, i check. same
man have CSKU dog with bad elbow, he report to SV, and dog not on pdb,
i check also. both dog on sv hd ed system and much more on DKK system.

do research for fact before spreading fairy tale. is not fair to people like to learn
about dog and is not good to people who make breeding. maybe temperament
of dogs no good match, maybe perfecto, i not know. risk of bad hd/ed is not bad
and look mucho above average. truth and fact is friend and shine light on darkness
and untruth.

Prager, never believe in PDB in case of hip ratings.
In case you want to do a research you need to use "official" sources like SV, OFA, DKK, or else.

Further on, OFA and SV rate differently, there is no 1:1. Out of my experience most German dogs, when x-rayed for OFA rating (at that point at least one year older, but sometimes even 2 or more years older ) go from SV "fast normal" to OFA "good", from "noch zugelassen" to "fair", personally I have never heard about a dog going from "fast normal" to "borderline".
I may be wrong, but without proof ( not only one dog, please ) I doubt it.

In Germany the "ZW" became much more important than the actual rating of a single dog, because the ZW tells about ancestors, siblings, and offspring. The lower the ZW, the better the probability of "healthy" puppies.
Dam + sire / 2 has to be less than 100 ( otherwise no breeding ), the smaller the result, the better.
A lot of breeders try to stay in the eighties, some even in the seventies.

What really makes me wonder - a while ago ( 1 year? 2 years? I don´t remember ) you said you don´t believe in "official" x-rays ( neither OFA nor SV ), because of "too many mistakes", and you and your partners only do x-rays because of "demand/buyers/official rules", not because of conviction.

Now you do judge a dog/litter because of even these ( missing ) results.

I never forgot this discussion, because for me this statement was not understandable...
Did you change your mind? ( I´d appreciate it...)
 

Oh Susie, I remember reading that as well. I think that was when I was still lurking and not an actual member of this website yet.

I thought he said he did do the xray of his dogs, but he read them himself because OFA was/is unreliable because they send them to vet students(?) And it's a different three people every time.

I also remember him encouraging people to learn how to read hip scores on their own (because this prompted me to go learn how they're graded), and he only sent them in to get graded officially if his customers wanted it.