Anyone have a son or daughter of Ballack von der Brucknerallee? - Page 2

Western Rider - I have put all of this information on the PDB before but in the past only one person asked the question “who is the Dog?” which is a pretty poor response and shows a lack of interest towards putting things right.

In my opinion people should come forward and be open if the problems within the breed are to be dealt with in an objective way. There is a distinct lack of knowledge based on people wanting to be told everything that is wrong and how to deal with it. Any self respecting breeder should want to know what to do and, where to seek the information, without being led by the nose. It comes as no surprise to me that so called top breeders do not contribute more and, I think that the reason may be because by contributing it will reveal just how much they do NOT know. Breeding depends as much on luck as knowledge.

I have often said that the PDB is a valuable tool that everyone can use for much needed information and, I still hold that view. The problem is that so many readers have turned to social media for information which, in the main, tells them nothing other than gossip. For some time the Forum has seen readers and contributors dwindle to the point that most now come from the USA. I think that it is up to the PDB to publicise the benefits of returning to the site and taking part. There is also much information that Admin could contribute which would not break any rules because the topic is already in the public domain. In short I think that the PDB needs to do more to draw out more contributors by being a little more controversial and get involved. For example, when a newspaper says something with a comment the result is more papers are sold.

Mackenzie

Hm, this is all very interesting but has anyone bothered to check where in Ballack von der Brucknerallee's pedigree the dogs referred to by Mackenzie actually occur? So far as I can see Ramacon Swashbuckler was born on 1st January 1969 - that is 57 years ago. The other dogs mentioned by Mackenzie are of a similar antiquity. They occur at approximately the 12th generation or further back. Has anyone worked out how many dogs a dog has in its ancestry by the 12th generation? It is approximately 8,000. The exact figure doesn't matter much but it is a VERY large number.

Now I don't suppose there is a dog in existence which somewhere in an ancestry of 8,000 dogs (and, yes, I know some, perhaps many, will be repeated) does not have an ancestor with some health issue or another. Is this sufficient to whisper 'secrecy' against a dog? It is nonsense. If Mackenzie has evidence within, say, the last five generations of a dog with epilepsy in Ballack's pedigree let him say so and identify that dog and upon what basis he says so. Going this far back is absurd. I dare say one could assassinate the reputation of every dog in existence if one did that. Does Mackenzie even know his own ancestors 12 generations back? I certainly don't.

And then we have this oft repeated height issue. Personally I have not measured Ballack and so I am not in a position to know (even assuming I was competent to do such measuring which I am not). However, I would be interested to know how Mackenzie 'knows'. Unless he has some means of knowing as opposed to relying upon whispers do please let him share how he 'knows' that Ballack is oversized.

For what it is worth Hagadahl's Figo died of gastric torsion.

When I see Mackenzie write something positive about a person or a dog it will make my day.

Peterlee is correct in identifying when the dogs I mentioned earlier being active and, I did say in my first post identifying these dogs as being way back in the bloodline.

Ramacon Swashbuckler was indeed born in 1969 but he did not start his stud career until 1971. In 1972 he became Crufts Best in Show which enhanced his reputation and led to him being more in demand. He sired numerous offspring which also had Ludwig of Charavigne behind them from the Dam side and, as we know, Ludwig was the sire of Philanderer who was Sire to Swashbuckler. The gene for epilepsy was passed on from Ludwig and the dogs behind him and the disease did not just start with him. Ludwig was born in 1959 and his Sire was born in 1956. Swashbuckler went on to sire Spartacist of Hendrawen who was born in 1972 and began his stud life in approximately 1974 some eight years after his sire. He was widely used especially to the Cito v Konigsbruch all German bloodline. Spartacist also had the litter sisters Hella and Happy v Charavigne behind him who were carriers of the disease. To make things worse Ludwig was the grandsire of Quadrille of Eveley who in turn was also widely used. He was the Sire of another Crufts Best in Show winner in 1969 called Nibelung from Charavigne. Neither Peterlee, myself or anyone else can say exactly how far the disease has bred on since Ludwig’s sire was born. That being so it is not a nonsense to assume the possibility that the epilepsy disease has continued to be passed on for at least a similar period, also bearing in mind that the disease can skip generations. This breeding is a complete mess.

Turning to Ballack, I doubt anyone can or will say whether there has been a case of epilepsy behind him. I did not know that Figo died from torsion if that is the official version of events. Having said that it has been known that when a dog had to disappear suddenly then torsion was given as the reason. I also know that there is research going on in the UK relating to Quenn, who is behind Figo, as a common factor relating to cases of epilepsy in the UK. It is not possible for me to provide information on the state of the position in that research because of the Data Protection Act. The reason that I know this research is going on is that I discovered one of the females in the bloodline is the litter sister to a third generation behind my own female. I am not trying to assassinate Ballack because all of the information that I have quoted can be found on this database and is, therefore, already in the public domain. Moving on to the question of height this is something that has been mentioned by people other that myself. My information came out of Germany from a trusted source.

Peterlee does not know how far epilepsy can be bred on but with the dogs quoted here it could be some considerable time. I have seen almost all of the dogs quoted here except for Cent, Hella and Happy. Quite clearly Peterlee has not read many of my posts otherwise, unlike Peterlee I use my real name, it would be seen that I have given praise whenever it has been due. Also, I do know my own ancestors.

Mackenzie

I'm not convinced that any of the (British) dogs named - ie any dog in Mack's list APART from Cent - are IN BALLACK's pedigree anyway. It is not often that British dogs contributed much to the ancestry of German dogs, although it happens more than frequently t'other way around !  Their use would need to be multiple, rather than just from one dog who had them in his or her ancestry, as it takes at least two to tango with the Epilepsy genetics.

Mack, could you SHOW where Swashbuckler, Philanderer et al occur in actual lineage to the current Sieger ? I presume this is mainly through bitches ? People may find that helpful. If you can't, all you have done is reduced the 'hook' Cent is on for the German dogs, with something of a smokescreen.

This is NOT to deny the importance of recognising, and not underestimating, the extent to which Epilepsy continues coming back through bloodlines; I think posters will find I have done more than my bit to expose that fact in topics on PDB, for some years now...

Hundemutter - If you go back to Hagadahls Hamisch and follow the breeding from "Amulree" then you will find all of the names. Once you have discovered a name that you know it will open up the information.

Mackenzie

TY, Mack. Got the connection. Still hopeful about the use of those bloodlines not having spread into the majority of German breeding ! Always been a pity about the Amulree dogs as they were (are we nowadays on past tense only ?) so good in lots of ways; but yes if you go back, all those implicated in Epilepsy over here are present, no denying. I had thought the lines had been separated out more, rather than doubled up on, over the 80s - noughties ... but in Hamisch they appear to be coming back together again, so that's not good. Can I take it that Chris H has all this logged ?

Interesting that on a quick glance through, nobody seems to have made any ref to this problem in the Comments on the individual animals' PDB pedigrees - perhaps one of the pedigree admins should ensure this is done ?

Re Cent, though, is there more evidence of - perhaps another ? - connection with more of the German / continental GSD history ? I thought I'd heard over time that other, earlier dogs than him had been implicated in Epilepsy, do you know about any of those ?

@ Peterlee : the dogs listed may be a long way back, but unfortunately the Epilepsy problem is one that does not "wear out" with time, you just have to bring enough bloodlines carrying them together again for it to rear its ugly head in the present day. If you do a site search for PDB threds on Epilepsy, and on the 'off' colours like Blues and Chocolate/Liver, and also on White GSDs, you will find enough references to the way this happens, and the grief it has caused owners, to last you a lifetime. The group of 'English' GSDs to which Mack referred are central in the history of the disease in British dogs; they ALSO carried the genes for a lot of the dilute coats and long hair that puppy farmers just love, 'cos it SELLS, so they were overused in breeding for that sector of the breed. Even in the modern day, there are still some breeders who are breeding with multiple lines (some in their hundreds !) inbred on that group of dogs, as evidenced by careful research by the UK's Breed Health Co-ordinator.

Hundemutter - To answer your question regarding other dogs with a German connection there was another. Ingosohn of Errol had German blood and he was the sire of Arno of Saba who, in turn, sired the widely used male Avon Prince of Alumvale. I think that there must be more but this is going back into the 1930'S.

Mackenzie

Hundemutter - Here is another one for you, Fant v d Wienerau. He was born 6-10-1975 and he came to the UK. He was mated to a female and epilepsy was present in the litter. Fant was a Canto v d Wienerau grandson on his mother's side.

Mackenzie

Mack, I haven´t seen an epileptic German Shepherd Dog for a lot of years ( or heard about one ); actually the last epileptic dog I realized was in the early nineties - is it possible UK got the carriers whereas our dogs are more or less fine ( including Ballack )?
Doesn´t seem to be a real problem on my site of the pond