training a badass dog - Page 3

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by Centurian on 17 July 2016 - 12:07

I didn't declare this was an over aggressive dog. But i did make the point many GS breeders do not plan or have a specific logistic breeding program in mind that result in many poorly bred GS over aggression being pronounced is the trait I used to make the point. Duke , yes we can see things differently , But in my experience i see enough dogs coming in from Europe , over aggressive. And I laugh at a number of police officers because they think they have great GS with good mentality , in truth i would never want if they gave that dog to me. Not being sassy , just a point the quality . In Europe some police depts are thinking of testing the GS differently than they did in the past .. because of what I write. Si i am not bashing or critisizing- simply sharing ides.

My concern about this dog, from my previous posts, is the ability of this dog to be controlled and to control itself. Talking about aggression : self control , impulse control is one factor keeping a dog's or a person 's normal or abnormal aggression under control. A lack of impulse control in a person is as bad as being over aggressive itself. A 90lb person a uncontrolled can kill someone in 1 second. 1, not 2, 1 second. Again the concern i have for the dog i wrote about is a control issue.

Why , why could not the previous owner control this dog ? Very rarely have I seen , just my experience, my biased experience in my circles, a dog taught to his level , his skill , his age , not been taught to out. BTW , even though i used aggression to talk about faulty breeding , I like dogs that are highly possessive , because the dog has to want to ,posses before it can want to guard. But over , highly overly possessive dogs can be a fault to . Possessiveness again is a genetic behavioral trait. So , yes as Slaux wrote the dog appeared ok once he got the sleeve. But in 1 video , that is what he on the outside he appears to be . ? what is he on the inside ? I am interested when the point comes that he HAS to give something up , controlled . Bottom line : can this dog be controlled ? I am hoping that he can .. and BTW reading Duke's posts , if possible ,then at least with him the dog has a chance .

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 July 2016 - 17:07

Funny... because generally Cops say they have not enough aggression and the dogs coming in from Europe would be too sporty....

by duke1965 on 17 July 2016 - 18:07

you are correct there bearenfang, that is why dogs like these are so interesting for me for breeding, australian police and army have same problem with west german lines there, too sporty
not saying all west german lines are too sporty but in general people tend to buy stock from the famous sporty ones LOL

Mithuna

by Mithuna on 17 July 2016 - 18:07

Duke Thumbs UpThumbs Up


Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 17 July 2016 - 22:07

Centurian, what is your "circle" that you haven't seen many dogs his age/level (what level is do you see, anyway, as to me, the dog does not look that far along) that haven't been taught to out? Where are you from? I'm very curious about geography and perspective because I see plenty here in the US and I am not even "in the business" so to speak. In fact, it's common for people here not to teach the out until later in the game. I'm not saying it's correct for every dog and every purpose, merely pointing out that the dog not knowing the out is not that significant of a finding nor a red flag that he is not tractable or that there was a big problem with him in his previous home. I realize that Duke is not in the USA either, but Duke's experiences as far as this dog go seem to more closely mirror what I see here.

Like I said, there might be a big problem with the dog, but it's not apparent from anything here. Is he something I would endeavor to breed? Meh. Not really. He's not quite "ideal" as Duke himself said, but he's PLENTY workable and I really don't see the danger in him that you seem to be seeing or anything that says he can never be controlled. As far as this clip, I only see that no one has yet tried. Give me the untrained dog over the one that people did stupid *&#+ with any day. JMO.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 18 July 2016 - 06:07

Like Jenny, I have seen many dogs in training where the "Out" has not been trained (yet). Or it is so badly and skimpily trained that it is just unreliable (and worryingly close to spoiling the dogs' ability to perform / be trained for an effective, competition standard, "out" at later date). [This is in England.] It just isn't a command many owners put nearly enough store by, IMO.

I think that is incidental to this lad's story, though. To me, the video shows a dog who is very excitable and whose 82 yr old previous owner no longer had the strength to make him settle down calmly (hence Duke struggling to get him to start off from a Sit @ each bite). Who knows, if more modern, less physical compulsive, methods had been used in basic obedience from the get-go, this might have been a whole different scenario ! Just a suggestion ... : ).


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 18 July 2016 - 09:07

 


Badass / agressive where ??

 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 18 July 2016 - 11:07

And it's not to late to bring positive methods in.
It starts with taking away any and all freedom and handfeeding.
Crate that dog, don't give it freedom, hand feed him for a week and begin to charge the clicker. After a single week you should be seeing change in his behavior. Then crate games, impulse control, impulse control and more impulse control, "It's yer choice" (been done for ages but Susan Garret gave it a name), and shaping and pure engagement for a few weeks. Then teach him how to properly turn off the pressure with a prong collar and I honestly won't believe that after all that, he still won't sit. 

You will see a change. If this works for fear aggressive dogs, than it'll work for a dog like him.


Q Man

by Q Man on 18 July 2016 - 14:07

Like I said before...I don't see anything wrong with this dog...What I do see is a dog that hasn't had any direction...Any direction that works...I can see where someone older who doesn't have the strength to control this dog can have a problem...
I personally wouldn't do anything special for this dog...I would only work and teach him the way I teach almost every dog...And that is I work them with trust...I don't force them (too much) but instead I'd still use "Motivational Techniques"...
If you force this dog you can ruin any real "Bond" you might be able to create with him...I would (to begin with) play with him with a toy (Ball or Kong) and also begin to use food to get him to do what I want...
I "DO" teach an OUT pretty quickly...but I don't use force...I use a tug and just hold it until the dog lets go...It can take awhile but it's worth the wait...You can and should use compulsion later on for this but I would wait...
I am very big on creating a "Bond" with the dog...I have owned...trained and handled a lot of dogs that are very Hard Headed...but if you just give them some patience you can get what you want along with creating a good relationship...NOT just a "ME BOSS...YOU DOG" type of relationship...

~Bob~

by Centurian on 18 July 2016 - 14:07

Hi Jen
I am In the Northeast USA
I will share :
30 years ago Jen I went under intense teaching and training of not just the Best GS people but THE Best Of what was considered of those Best GS trainers in Germany and USA. At 20 weeks old we teach [ by several ways] , educate , a protection a canine in the pathway of protection to ' OUT'. I don't say train. Jen, I hate that word train . 30 years ago the lingo and concept was that , outing a young dog , ' it kills drive'. That in and of itself is the most stupid concept that ever came about. YES , it is held today and practiced today , by uneducated ignorant trainers. , who never better themselves or learn themselves. This seems harsh words but i mean these as accurate kind descriptive words. They don't realize know , what they don't know , that's all. The TRUTH is that if you teach , i mean teach not train , a 20 week puppy at that , if the teaching is correct , the puppy should realize that 'outing' brings the puppy / the dog to it's goal , whatever that is for that puppy . In doing so , the performance and the motivation to out the dog becomes 10 fold stronger and reliable. Moreover , this will transfer to ' calling off a send and bite attack' performance . Both the out/guard and call off there is no circumstance in the dog minds that brings it to want one more than the other , biting vs outing. Both are equally fulfilling to the dog. Neither action competes or conflicts with the other. That is to mean people interacting with dogs do not know how to , understand to balance control with other features that are being taught in such a way to make the dog and the dog's performance BETTER . It is a responsibility to a dog / owner to to guide them correctly and to it that the dog and the owner conduct themselves correctly.

My next comment Jen . When one does protection teaching with the dog , many people do not know , or do not know how to balance the motivations and actions within the dog. They do not know how to guide the dog , have the dog channel itself in such a way that it is pensive and has complete control over it's thoughts, feelings , actions which lends the dog to be able to control itself . Nor do they interact with the dog such that at least they are in control , the dog works unto itself. . For the record , I start to teach this to a pup at 10 weeks . Jen , if i ever worked with you , I could teach you to do this without even speaking a word to you puppy or dog. Without a collar or leash or any other controlling device. Jen . I had one of the most independent , dominant , low retrieve motivation GS that could ever be. In a short time , Jen , using concepts that I write about , no pressure , no force , I had that dog rushing back to me with a thrown ball only to shove it into my body so fast , it wasn't even funny.

Jen , I can't say for sure .. but I have the strong feeling from my decades of experience , that you have not 'seen this' much in the USA , simply because people that do Sch , IPO are so stuck in the Lingo , Methodology , Old Concepts and their philosophy that this has prevented them from expanding their Horizon and doing differently. My case , IPO today is taught and done in many areas of USA as it has been done 30 years ago . That's why Jen . If you have done , Mondio / Belgium /or French Ring , Campagna, KNVP . I am not bashing. The endeavors have different theory and philosophy.

I also add , what i have seen even in LE , ,and BTW I trained LE Canines , is that many officers , not all , but enough , have control issues with their dogs. Part is the genetics of the dogs and part is the teaching. Most officers are great handlers , super handlers but fail to understand and comprehend TEACHING a canine. IMOp true teaching is much different , completely different than the ability to handle a dog ! Many people do not know how to access a dog , temperament or character wise, let alone teach. Just saying. And I don't mean show a dog a set of exercises - that in my book is NOT teaching.

This now brings me to state, it does not matter if a 80 yr man or woman owned this dog. Someone , someone taught this dog to bite a sleeve on a man , and hand in hand with that should have been taught a good many other things. Not in respect to this dog but philosophically speaking this concept applies . Teach a youngster that it doesn't have to xyz , then wait till he is a teenager , just wait , just wait until you do have to teach and enforce xyz . Same with a canine. And with a canine certain dogs many revert to the option of becoming physical . MAKE the dog out !

Last comment. please people , many on this PDB make me laugh. 2 years ago a new fellow came to our Sch club. Had a 2 yr male dog similar to this , uncontrolled by the owner and wouldn't out. This is the 3rd place he came to for help. The directing trainer could not physically get this dog to ,out. no way . He kept commanding etc. In my view the dog was simply confused. Simple not understanding what was expected of it. That was the key , this dog simply did not understand what was expected of it. But the correction for not outing went on and on . Three sessions same thing over and over and over . In my mind , what ABUSE . I stood and watched. So I asked the wife of the owner , , " did you eve teach this dog 'to leave anything alone'. She said no one ever did that , we were told by previous trainers not to do that. I said to her , really ? Then I asked her ," so tell me what is thew difference of telling a dog to leave something be and a dog in protection work to leave the sleeve be " . She looked so astonished, then she said ," NOTHING ". My reply was to her , give me 10 minutes and i will teach the dog the concept of " wanting to out ' [ no force , e collar or anything else - his lack of out was not genetic based , but failure to educate based]. So Jen , not everything is with the dog as it seems to be and the fact remains many people don't know what they don't know. They cannot seperate learned , or failure to learn , behavior from the genetics based behavior and/or each's contribution to behavior. of the dog are stuck in categorical ideas . All they know is: how to , this is how we do things , what the dog can cannot do . IMOp to interact with a dog in this endeavor never to have taught the dog to control itself to control the dog by ones self up to this age is highly irresponsible. With the exception that there is more here than what meets the eye. IMOp , I could be direly wrong, but my impression is that there more here about this dog than meets the eye.
I have seen dogs a few dogs like this in Germany . The dog looks great in the bite work , looks like a peach once he has gotten the sleeve.. but try to out him and take something away- you may get hurt. Again ., hope i am very very wrong about this dog. I am praying for the dog that I am .I hope Duke does well with him , this is his chance , maybe last chance.





 


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