German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 3

Bloodlines are very important for knowledgeable breeder to use. Each bloodline has specific characteristics and they are very dominant and past down for all generations. If the characteristic of the bloodline is washed down then it can be recovered by linebreeding on such blood line. In another words you are breeding sire and dam from the same bloodline there is great chance that you will produce dogs with characteristic of such bloodline. There are many genetic reasons why this works like this but it does work.  Every breeder should understand this if he is using the system or to his detriment does not use it. Here are the characteristic :

1.st line Hektor Von Schwaben is gone almost no Czech dogs in it - extinct.( As far as I know) This line is being reintroduced to Czech now due to popularity of dog Javir vom Talka Marda. Otherwise this line is being neglected since it is "balnd"

2.nd line: sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience.

3.rd line: very versatile dogs, high endurance and drive, our most popular line, smaller dogs

4.th line square dogs super protectiveness, handler aggression, early workers,

5.line widely spread many branches love trainer , otherwise not very consistent line, medium sized dogs,B/R, endurance, big heads, hard, clear headed I prefer part of the line which goes over Ingo v Rudingen and Ex von Riedstern which are superbly balanced hard dogs. Dogs with Ex's dominant gene are often reverse masked dogs and are usually what I call type 1 dogs - dogs which are naturally very protective and do not need to be trained to bite. ( type 2 dogs more popular these days need to be trained to bite. ) Example of reverse mask dog from Ex's  5th line. Type 1 dog. . 

 There are many other branches in 5th line. 

 Hans 

Hans,

For my knowledge, assuming I have a 1st line male mated with 2nd line female and the offspring mated with offspring of 3rd line male with 4th line female:

(1st line male + 2nd line female) male + (3rd line male + 4th line female) female

What line will the puppies be?

Cheers,
SE

^ this gonna be good.....just take the average and multiply it by whatever sire you happen to have in yr kennel and that's how it's done. Unless you are looking for something else then invoke the prepotency clause to get any line you prefer.

@Sinba E when I mention this principle then people who lack understanding how this works, come out of wood work and make fun of it. However your's is legitimate question since many dogs are bred like muts with disregard to blood lines indeed. Your example dog would be by definition of 1st blood line and may have character of such line. If you like such line then you can build on it by continually breeding him with dogs from 1st line. You would be basically conducting linebreeding on very genetically dominant dogs. Line-breeding, as anyone with 101 knowledge of genetics knows would bring up such characteristics of the 1st male blood line. However mixing bloodlines is done and may be helpful if done carefully and with purpose. If you decide to mix lines then  it is always recommended to breed dogs from neighboring blood lines Like 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th. But even though it is good rule it is not a rule cast in stone.
Example.
For example let say you like characteristics of 2nd male blood line. If the dog of 2nd line has poor prey drive as many do, you can breed it with 3rd line and approve the prey in your breeding program. 3rd line can also improve intensity, in this case, of 2nd male blood line. Then from resulting progeny of such breeding you select a pup with characteristics of the 2nd line but with by you desired higher prey drive and breed it again with breeding partner from 2nd blood line in order to preserve characteristics of the 2nd line but now hopefully with higher prey drive. If breeder then continues to breed in 2nd line then such crossing of lines has only temporary desired effect and characteristics of the second line will eventually come to the surface again.
However if a pedigree is haphazardly mixed, as many poorly bred dogs bred by breeders with no understand of such concept are, then as far as what you get temperament wise is not possible or it is hard to estimate based on blood lines. Such breeding is destructive and it is one reason why in non European countries - like in for example  US and Australia - the dogs, to chagrin of local breeders, are continually losing quality,and character and it's predictability of quality of their offspring in  their dogs and in order to maintain quality they continually need influx of dogs from Europe. We have all heard that top quality stud did not produce himself. That besides some other reasons is often  caused by breeders who do not understand and do not use proven rules of linebreeding and mix haphazardly lines in their breeding program. Such problem can be diminished greatelly by breeding i male line. 
However if a breeder has haphazard mutt like mix of bloodlines he can salvage the line it he starts to breed in line again and such breeder can   regain characteristics of the blood line in 1 - 3 generations . Good breeders should be consistently able to predict quality of the offspring of their dogs. In case of breeding in line it is easy. If you just type breed and ignorantly mix these lines as many breeders do, then it is much more difficult if not impossible.
I would like to say that linebreeding is done in horses as well. Ignorant people will make fun of breeding in male line yet it has been done successfully for ages.
I would strongly advice to all breeders to learn about breeding in male line and use it. It will make your life as a breeder easier and since if you breed for specific purpose - like law enforcement or sport or S&R and so utilization of such knowledge will give you desired predictability which will then separate you from breeders who do not use such knowledge and are making fun of such concept.

 Hans 

% of genetic likelihood within the generations...

01. generation 50/50 ( sire/dam)
02. generation 25/25/25/25 ( 4 grandparents )
03. generation 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5 ( 8 great grand parents )
04. generation 6.25 x 16 ( I am lazy, and there is not enough space, sorry - 16 great great grand parents )
05. generation 3.125 x 32
06. generation 1.5625 x 64
07. generation 0.78125 x 128
08. generation 0.390625 x 256
09. generation 0.1953125 x 512
10. generation 0.0976562 x 1.024
11. generation 0.0488281 x 2.048
12. generation 0.024414 x 4.096
13. generation 0.012207 x 8.192
14. generation 0.0061035 x 16.384
15. generation 0.0030517 x 32.768
16. generation 0.0015258 x 65.536
17. generation 0.0007629 x 131.072
18. generation 0.0003814 x 262.144
19. generation 0.0001907 x 524.288
20. generation 0.0000953 x 1.048.576
21. generation 0.0000476 x 2.097.152
22. generation 0.0000238 x 4.194.304
23. generation 0.0000119 x 8.388.608
24. generation 0.0000059 x 16.777.216
25. generation 0.0000029 x 33.554.432

This says : When looking back 25 generations there are 33.554.432 ancestors DIRECTLY involved (either as sire or as dam) - the statistically likelihood for any genetically presence of any ancestor out of the 25. generation is 0.0000029 %.

Hektor Schwaben is somewhere around 20. - 25. generation, Hettel Uckermark - 3 generations, Klodo Boxberg - 3 generations, Utz Haus Schütting = direct son, Rolf Osnabrücker Land - 7 generations.

Hektor = 25 generations back = 0.0000029 %

There may be some dogs who have Hektor 20 generations back "only", maybe even 18,
by then it´s a chance of 0.0003814 %, distributed to 262.144 different ancestors...

 

You want to bet on any genetically inherited traits..........?


 

Forgot the links...

https://www.schaeferhunde.de/fileadmin/BSP/Documents/Blutlinienplan_2015.pdf

https://www.schaeferhunde.de/fileadmin/BSZ/Documents/Blutlinienplan_GHKLR_2015.pdf

 

Susie,

I get what you're saying. I think the 0.0000029 % is delusional in selective breeding.
Here is why:
If you start a breed from say 4 dogs. 2 males and 2 females. you breed them, then breed their sons and daughters and keep doing the same for 25 generations, you still have the 4 dogs blood and genes in all the dogs you get, you are in the same closed circuit of genes and traits. You can not predict the ratio of any one of the starting 4 dogs in a certain dog-after-25-generations but each of the starting 4 dogs has a portion from the mix. You are not getting any new genes, but same genes in different mixes.

Let us assume one of the starting 4 dogs has a gene for white hair on the chest and for 25 generations you keep choosing a male which has white hairs on the chest and you breed him, then after 25 generations you still have the white hair gene in your strain of dogs.
Same goes for any trait. Idea is to select correctly and not make a mistake in what you select. This is theory, can it be done, was it done is another question.

Through the process, the more you introduce totally new blood the more your blood strain gets diluted.
Selective breeding means preserving good traits, and eliminating bad ones, you do not invent new genes or new species, breeders have always been doing this, though me personally not sure I could do it with 100% success.

Delusional would apply to replicating Hektor. Thats NOT the idea as Hans outlined and Ibrahim further illustrates above. No one believes in 100% or replication. Why is it necessary for people to go to ludicrous when ideas are presented here?

Ibrahim, this would ( maybe - I doubt it ) work in case ONE person would breed all of these generations, looking for THE SAME TRAITS all the times, but we are not talking about one single breeder, we are talking about 33.554.432 ancestors, that´s 16.777.216 breedings...

Are you able to imagine how many breeders might have been involved? In the worst case 16.777.216 different breeders...
All of them looking for traits they PERSONALLY like, after a while ( 4 generations? ) they didn´t even know the male in question, they have to believe in tell tales ...

Would you bet a single dime on it?

It´s useless, it´s pointless, it´s statistically nonsense. I am able to tell you about any dog that it does carry "true Hektor blood" - you can´t proof me wrong , because as far as I know almost every dog carries at least 0.0000029 "true Hektor blood".

Just forget about the other 33.554.431 ancestors, which might be responsible for special traits...
 

Forgot to mention ( getting old ):
No, Ibrahim, it´s no "closed circuit" - it´s an open process, thousands of thousands of dogs and breeders involved. We are not talking about a 3/5 linebreeding, we are talking about decades of generations, and we are talking about people declaring some dog to be a " line whatever ", although these persons neither made the 1000s of breedings nor knew the initial dog personally.

You still want to bet on it?

Gigante, ideas are great, but reality makes sense.