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by susie on 15 February 2016 - 22:02
I guess I really am too dumb, but in my world ( puppy coming = food = the need is fulfilled ) is a reward.
My companion dogs are my competition dogs, they learn like you described ( straight sit f.e. ), but they get a reward, be it toy, food, my language, body speech, praise, or anything else - that said, you are only able to manifest a wanted behavior if the dog feels well by doing the wanted behavior ( food, praise, whatever ) - not discussing old fashioned avoidence methods here.
Maybe I am too simple minded, would really like to see your dogs.
My companion dogs are my competition dogs, they learn like you described ( straight sit f.e. ), but they get a reward, be it toy, food, my language, body speech, praise, or anything else - that said, you are only able to manifest a wanted behavior if the dog feels well by doing the wanted behavior ( food, praise, whatever ) - not discussing old fashioned avoidence methods here.
Maybe I am too simple minded, would really like to see your dogs.
by beetree on 15 February 2016 - 23:02
Susie if you are too dumb, then I am an absolute moron! I think I have a knack with animals myself, seeing as they seem to come when I call them, even if I don't have a cookie in my hand.
Except, for sure Mojo will make the exception when he sees a toe clipper is in my hand. Then he will go find some kid and cozy right up next to them as pretty as could be with a look on his face of, "What... you were looking for me? I had noooooo idea!", as I reach for his collar. He comes willingly enough then, ready to face the inevitable.
Except, for sure Mojo will make the exception when he sees a toe clipper is in my hand. Then he will go find some kid and cozy right up next to them as pretty as could be with a look on his face of, "What... you were looking for me? I had noooooo idea!", as I reach for his collar. He comes willingly enough then, ready to face the inevitable.
by Centurian on 16 February 2016 - 01:02
by Centurian on 16 February 2016 - 15:02
Susie
No Susie You are not dumb . I was using example of teaching the puppy coming simply to illustrate that every day home companion training is really not much different than high end sport training . Or to say differently, what people do for sports is easily taught to puppies.
Considering rewards: The difficulty comes in the dog world when things aren't explained correctly and our words are used without correct meaning.For beginners sake the definition of reward is: When an animal is is given a stimulus/cue that brings about a specific behavior and that behavior is immediately reinforced by giving something to that animal what is given to that animal is deemed the reward in the animal is deemed rewarded. The operative aspect is the " immediacy" . Meaning the behavior and what is given occurs within a split second of each other. This is important because this is how the Association in the animals mind is created. So I stress it is not the act of giving are the event as much is it is the timing of it all. with the exception of clicker training .
As far as a puppy coming to me, the food is utilized in a different way and with different meaning. The food is not given to the puppy the exact moment it comes to me, or at the end of the behavior of coming to me. The food can be used as a motivator, a lure, a communication device in that respect. What I want to stress is when a puppy comes to me I often wait for another behavior offered by the puppy. This could be eye contact , or a sit , or the puppy jumping onto me [ this I do because in protection sport I train this such that body space personal contact never becomes an issue]. So the usage of food is not a reward. It's outside and beyond the act of the puppy coming to me.Therefore it is not a reward. My interaction with the pup comes before any food is given.
To take you one step further an eight week puppy is one thing a 12 week old puppy is another thing.At young ages what I essentially do is imprint in condition. Everything that I do changes and evolves.. I don't stick to stimulus- behavior- reward. Stimulus behavior reward. As I wrote, if one conditions and teaches that way , then that becomes exactly what an animal learns. Teach a dog to be rewarded , the result : it learns to always expect and work for reward. Additionally you teach the dog to work unto itself, taking yourself right out of the equation. What is done with the puppy ultimately is becoming connected to me by means of interaction. I create mental pictures and expectations to specific behaviors in the puppy's mind. But I don't create the expectation that the puppy will do something only if it has a reward for itself. That is like these parents that give allowances to their children when they clean their room and before you know it the child has the attitude that it's entitled to an allowance because he has clean his room. Take away the allowance and the teenager has no reason to clean the room. Remove rewards and behaviors extinguish. Rather I change the pup itself.
At 12 weeks old my puppy understands other lessons taught: wrong, meaning wrong choice of behavior , no, meaning not ever acceptable behavior, sit down stand , sit and hold your position, down in hold your position until you were released or I tell you something else to do . And that is another key the "release" because when a behaviors are performed I released the puppy. I can interact with it after releasing and afterward do something of the sort like give it a treat. Again an example of how food is used outside the context of an exercise after the fact. Again food here food is not used as a reward. But the food does serve the purpose of adding to our relationship.another important feature is teaching calmness , and poise.
Okay I'll stop here but i just begun discuss basic conditioning versus reward.
As I stated before I write more so for people who are just learning. But I tell you with certainty I've come across people training Sport for 30 years that don't understand. Case in point : the last issue of Sch USA magazine that I got [ a psychologist friend of mine also got the same issue ] had an article in it about training. We both read that article and was the most cockamamie explanation about training, learning theory , that it wasn't even funny for people that are so-called high-end trainers. And this is the difficulty I've seen for over 30 years people that don't understand, and use poorly defined words that lead to confusion. HUH , my psychologist friend almost picked up the phone to tell them not to print articles when people can't express correctly the concepts. Trainers may have followed the article , but no one else would truly have understood.
I'll give you one quick example, the old-time philosophy and protection word "agitation". Many people argued what's the big deal. Here it is : dogs can be stimulated to be motivated to bite. I have no problem with that. But agitation is such a big word that I've seen people truly agitate the dog, and that's exactly what they do agitate the *** out of it, such that it becomes and gets imprinted to act hectic and frantic which interferes with good learning and performance.The result hectic frantic behavior , in bite work. Because of a single word depicted the wrong idea. So in seeing the word agitating many miss what they really need to do when interacting with the dog.
So I end here that what we think we are doing with the dog may not always be so. In what you think you are teaching may not in fact the dog is learning.. And what the dog has learned for itself may be very different what you intended to teach.
Last comment : same idea exists in reference to the topic of Positive Training. Not all positive training is motivational training and not all motivational training is positive. That topic is for another day.
No Susie You are not dumb . I was using example of teaching the puppy coming simply to illustrate that every day home companion training is really not much different than high end sport training . Or to say differently, what people do for sports is easily taught to puppies.
Considering rewards: The difficulty comes in the dog world when things aren't explained correctly and our words are used without correct meaning.For beginners sake the definition of reward is: When an animal is is given a stimulus/cue that brings about a specific behavior and that behavior is immediately reinforced by giving something to that animal what is given to that animal is deemed the reward in the animal is deemed rewarded. The operative aspect is the " immediacy" . Meaning the behavior and what is given occurs within a split second of each other. This is important because this is how the Association in the animals mind is created. So I stress it is not the act of giving are the event as much is it is the timing of it all. with the exception of clicker training .
As far as a puppy coming to me, the food is utilized in a different way and with different meaning. The food is not given to the puppy the exact moment it comes to me, or at the end of the behavior of coming to me. The food can be used as a motivator, a lure, a communication device in that respect. What I want to stress is when a puppy comes to me I often wait for another behavior offered by the puppy. This could be eye contact , or a sit , or the puppy jumping onto me [ this I do because in protection sport I train this such that body space personal contact never becomes an issue]. So the usage of food is not a reward. It's outside and beyond the act of the puppy coming to me.Therefore it is not a reward. My interaction with the pup comes before any food is given.
To take you one step further an eight week puppy is one thing a 12 week old puppy is another thing.At young ages what I essentially do is imprint in condition. Everything that I do changes and evolves.. I don't stick to stimulus- behavior- reward. Stimulus behavior reward. As I wrote, if one conditions and teaches that way , then that becomes exactly what an animal learns. Teach a dog to be rewarded , the result : it learns to always expect and work for reward. Additionally you teach the dog to work unto itself, taking yourself right out of the equation. What is done with the puppy ultimately is becoming connected to me by means of interaction. I create mental pictures and expectations to specific behaviors in the puppy's mind. But I don't create the expectation that the puppy will do something only if it has a reward for itself. That is like these parents that give allowances to their children when they clean their room and before you know it the child has the attitude that it's entitled to an allowance because he has clean his room. Take away the allowance and the teenager has no reason to clean the room. Remove rewards and behaviors extinguish. Rather I change the pup itself.
At 12 weeks old my puppy understands other lessons taught: wrong, meaning wrong choice of behavior , no, meaning not ever acceptable behavior, sit down stand , sit and hold your position, down in hold your position until you were released or I tell you something else to do . And that is another key the "release" because when a behaviors are performed I released the puppy. I can interact with it after releasing and afterward do something of the sort like give it a treat. Again an example of how food is used outside the context of an exercise after the fact. Again food here food is not used as a reward. But the food does serve the purpose of adding to our relationship.another important feature is teaching calmness , and poise.
Okay I'll stop here but i just begun discuss basic conditioning versus reward.
As I stated before I write more so for people who are just learning. But I tell you with certainty I've come across people training Sport for 30 years that don't understand. Case in point : the last issue of Sch USA magazine that I got [ a psychologist friend of mine also got the same issue ] had an article in it about training. We both read that article and was the most cockamamie explanation about training, learning theory , that it wasn't even funny for people that are so-called high-end trainers. And this is the difficulty I've seen for over 30 years people that don't understand, and use poorly defined words that lead to confusion. HUH , my psychologist friend almost picked up the phone to tell them not to print articles when people can't express correctly the concepts. Trainers may have followed the article , but no one else would truly have understood.
I'll give you one quick example, the old-time philosophy and protection word "agitation". Many people argued what's the big deal. Here it is : dogs can be stimulated to be motivated to bite. I have no problem with that. But agitation is such a big word that I've seen people truly agitate the dog, and that's exactly what they do agitate the *** out of it, such that it becomes and gets imprinted to act hectic and frantic which interferes with good learning and performance.The result hectic frantic behavior , in bite work. Because of a single word depicted the wrong idea. So in seeing the word agitating many miss what they really need to do when interacting with the dog.
So I end here that what we think we are doing with the dog may not always be so. In what you think you are teaching may not in fact the dog is learning.. And what the dog has learned for itself may be very different what you intended to teach.
Last comment : same idea exists in reference to the topic of Positive Training. Not all positive training is motivational training and not all motivational training is positive. That topic is for another day.
by Hundmutter on 16 February 2016 - 16:02
You said it right there, Centurian, about what you can
get a PUPPY to do. Some of us, though, have not
always had a puppy to work with. When I trained my
competitive obedience dog, I was starting with a 3.5
year old retired Showdog. LOL
get a PUPPY to do. Some of us, though, have not
always had a puppy to work with. When I trained my
competitive obedience dog, I was starting with a 3.5
year old retired Showdog. LOL
by Centurian on 16 February 2016 - 17:02
Hundmutter
First I want to applaud you for starting off with the 3.5-year-old dog. Not everybody is receptive to acquiring or adopting older dogs.
For other people that have also done the same or adopted rescue dogs ditto. I want to highlight that the old cliché can't teach an old dog new tricks is far from the truth.
Hundmutter, I have a confession to make, I didn't start out to be a great teacher and I don't look upon myself now as a super teacher because I have learned more from my older dogs than any trainer., Outside of my mentor, could ever possibly of taught me. In addition I use not just one or two older dogs but sometimes even more right in the midst, at the same time I teach my puppies. Similarly what house me to understand children.... Are other children.
I have gotten twice in my lifetime to same as you retired highly show rated German shepherds. And I think this also relates to why made a big deal about reward training. This is how these dogs were trained and with moderate compulsion. So when I come into these other dogs I felt that I had retrain their Outlook and we establish not just my relationship but their attitude towards relationship.
What I have seen at times the perversion of the term obedience. I have seen Sch title dogs , that have no obedience. For readers sake I will tell you, at least what should be, the definition of obedience. When cued[ and I did not say command ] the dog without any thought to anything else immediately, willingly, and gladly executes the taught behavior. In my opinion, the dog and it's hard should want to execute a behavior even more than you wanted to. If you have to assert a request and are make the dog do something that is not obedience. What one gets his compliance. Compliance and obedience I not one and the same. What does this have to do with the thread topic? The same point in trying to make, reward base behavior lends to a dog with only self-serving interests. And by nature the German Shepherd dog should have at least to some degree the genetic makeup of wanting to work in conjunction with an owner//handler/Shepherd. Home companion , Show or Sport , doesn't matter. . What I did not write in my posts : is that at the endpoint of my teaching and conditioning, when I am with my dogs it does not matter if I have food, a toy or whatever for them to follow my direction. This is unlike the adult dogs I took in. ?? maybe you too . However, I don't know you or your dogs, but I want you to realize that you have much influence over how you interact with your dog. You cannot change I have him unlearn what was already taught, but you both have the opportunity to establish a relationship as he has a capability of learning things a new. As long as someone treats me with courtesy , i will be willing to share ideas .
Hundmutter , from your posts that i read , you are well versed , good for you :-) and I can tell in those posts that your GS is very very lucky to be in your hands !!!! BTW , thank you for posting .
First I want to applaud you for starting off with the 3.5-year-old dog. Not everybody is receptive to acquiring or adopting older dogs.
For other people that have also done the same or adopted rescue dogs ditto. I want to highlight that the old cliché can't teach an old dog new tricks is far from the truth.
Hundmutter, I have a confession to make, I didn't start out to be a great teacher and I don't look upon myself now as a super teacher because I have learned more from my older dogs than any trainer., Outside of my mentor, could ever possibly of taught me. In addition I use not just one or two older dogs but sometimes even more right in the midst, at the same time I teach my puppies. Similarly what house me to understand children.... Are other children.
I have gotten twice in my lifetime to same as you retired highly show rated German shepherds. And I think this also relates to why made a big deal about reward training. This is how these dogs were trained and with moderate compulsion. So when I come into these other dogs I felt that I had retrain their Outlook and we establish not just my relationship but their attitude towards relationship.
What I have seen at times the perversion of the term obedience. I have seen Sch title dogs , that have no obedience. For readers sake I will tell you, at least what should be, the definition of obedience. When cued[ and I did not say command ] the dog without any thought to anything else immediately, willingly, and gladly executes the taught behavior. In my opinion, the dog and it's hard should want to execute a behavior even more than you wanted to. If you have to assert a request and are make the dog do something that is not obedience. What one gets his compliance. Compliance and obedience I not one and the same. What does this have to do with the thread topic? The same point in trying to make, reward base behavior lends to a dog with only self-serving interests. And by nature the German Shepherd dog should have at least to some degree the genetic makeup of wanting to work in conjunction with an owner//handler/Shepherd. Home companion , Show or Sport , doesn't matter. . What I did not write in my posts : is that at the endpoint of my teaching and conditioning, when I am with my dogs it does not matter if I have food, a toy or whatever for them to follow my direction. This is unlike the adult dogs I took in. ?? maybe you too . However, I don't know you or your dogs, but I want you to realize that you have much influence over how you interact with your dog. You cannot change I have him unlearn what was already taught, but you both have the opportunity to establish a relationship as he has a capability of learning things a new. As long as someone treats me with courtesy , i will be willing to share ideas .
Hundmutter , from your posts that i read , you are well versed , good for you :-) and I can tell in those posts that your GS is very very lucky to be in your hands !!!! BTW , thank you for posting .
by Hundmutter on 16 February 2016 - 21:02
Well, 'Thank You' too ! Unfortunately there is no
GSD (or anything else) at all, at this time. Lost
my last boy at the end of last Summer. Planning
on taking in another, rescue, 'oldie', later this year.
Linda.
GSD (or anything else) at all, at this time. Lost
my last boy at the end of last Summer. Planning
on taking in another, rescue, 'oldie', later this year.
Linda.
by Nurse Bishop on 21 July 2016 - 02:07
Thank you for your wisdom and insight, Centurian.
by Nans gsd on 21 July 2016 - 16:07
And really I am still digesting a lot of this info; I also thank all of you for your wisdom. Nan
And would also like to add that my boy has somewhat grown out of that "hair" that he had and now comes running to me from wherever he might be, "YES" gets a reward but is also very willing to come. Love that, but we have also worked very hard at this since this post and will keep working at it daily as I realized that I could be dealing with a potential problem if that behavior continued in the direction which we were headed. Have been quite happy with results. Thanks again, Nan
by Hundmutter on 21 July 2016 - 18:07
Good news, Nan.
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