Character - Page 3

Makes more sense to compare triplets or quintuplets in humans with a litter than individual people born at different times in the nurturers life.....doesn't it? But I'm not going to argue with the all knowing.

I wasn't going to touch that post w/a ten foot pole. LOL

I fail to see the connection at all. Sounds like excuses being made for weaker pups. Sure, an idiot can screw up a dog, but if the genetics are in order they can nearly always be fixed. A dog that cannot rebound is not sound.

You're right Jenni, but it bugs me that newbies read some of this garbage and take it to heart and then go around and spread it like its gospel.

'....they can nearly always be fixed. A dog that cannot rebound is not sound.'

I understand what you are saying, but it would depend on how screwy the person is who's screwing the dog up. That statement reminds me of a person who claims 'you cannot Beat the quality out of a dog.'
If what you say is true, then why bother vet your puppy owners? That's not meant as an attack, I really would like to understand. Because if a dog's behavior is ALL genetics, then nurture is moot?

 

I agree, siblings born and raised years appart is not comperable to a litter of pups. Besides, litters usually stay in the same environment till at least 8 wks, a very important formative period.

Dogs have almost no identical twins .. all puppies in a litter are fraternal. Differences due to birth order environmental influences in humans is well documented and it is a reflection of the huge influence that environment has on development of personality and physical attributes. Even in the case of identical twins in humans the science says that even these individuals will be heavily influenced by environment such that one twin will and usually does have different diseases and disease expression.  There is no genetic difference between the puppies in a litter of puppies born together or full brother and sisters born in consecutive litters from the same parents. The only difference between Fero v Zeuterner Himmelreich and Hero v Zeuterner Himmelreich was environment both before, during, and after conception and birth.  A partial list of Fero and his full siblings on PDB below.  You will not that Fero's siblings had a series of less than stellar hip scores  ... were these genetic or environmental .. and depending on the answer why is Fero used in so many dogs??  Also Fero was said to have hectic and prey drive aggression and that Fero did not produce sound dogs for police work??  So if Fero and his brothers and sisters were not able to produce dogs with "strong" nerves and character what does that say about the idea that character is genetic and not influenced by environment.  I believe a thorough understanding of human or canine development from conception to death would support the current scientific thinking that most things in the development of mammals is a combination of genetics strongly interacting with environment.

F litter  Born: 17. April 1984

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=268-fero-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=18332-franco-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=24376-fax-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

H litter Born: 15. December 1984

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=107430-heiko-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=107440-hero-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=107411-hanne-vom-zeuterner-himmelreich

 

Joan, my post should have read "rebound to a reasonable degree" not rebound with no caveats. Now, I did say "nearly always" not always. I don't mean you can win the WUSV with a dog who someone has totally screwed up, but that same dog may live the rest of lis life just fine in a better home who understands the mistakes that were made and can counter-condition. IE, the dog, once in a sane environment, can rebound enough to assimilate into that environment. A dog who is incapable of rebounding to any degree after stress is not sound, is what I was trying to say.

I understand what you're saying.